A genuine No.4 Mk1 "T" that is not marked T or TR?

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Originally Posted by Brown Dog

Apologies for resurrecting this thread.

Just reading through it having bought a 'TR' marked rifle from a pal.

The rifle was bought by him from Roger Payne a bunch of years ago as one of a bunch brought back from Rhodesia.

Having read all this, I'm rather alarmed to find that it should have a 'T' marking on the receiver wall between the two pads - this rifle has no such marking; (infact it's a magnifying glass job to even spot that there was once a serial number near that position too - until taking the No 4 (T) photo virtual tour I didn't even realise there was a number there!)

The receiver ring is marked
M 47 C
1944
M33920
TR

But the receiver wall is virtually bare (faintest signs of a serial number and no sign of a 'T')

I also notice that my bayonet lug proof mark is quite unlike that in the photo tour. Mine is stamped with 'BNP' under a crown. ".303" and then a small crossed sword stamp with 3 unreadable letters.

Dare I ask:
What have I got?
Are my markings 'within tolerance' or do I have a 'bitsa'?

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Some sniper rifles didn't have telescopes fitted for whatever reason and therefore don't have the t on the receiver wall. I'm sure if it was bought from Roger Payne it is genuine as he's one of the most respected dealers around and an all-round top bloke too! Re the other markings on the receiver (the No4 mk1) - on bsas in particular these are often very faint if not invisible - so what you've got is entirely normal.

If you post pictures of it I'm sure the resident experts will tell you what's what.

If I remember the actual wording, the instruction stated that '........ the designation (that of No4 Mk1) will be aftermarked with the letter 'T' in order to identify its subsequent telescopic (rifle) status'

That meant that if you found one that wasn't marked, you simply marked it. In fact, you can still see the remains of the the former letter 'T' on some L42's

It's quite true that on many/most BSA rifles, especially if they've been through the Base Workshop system, the feint left side body marking has been blasted clean and is virtually impossible to read. For this reason, the serial number has been re-stamped onto the butt socket. And sometimes, the numbers don't quite tally. Often an original 8 or 3 or 5 etc has been misread and mistakenly restamped wrongly. Indeed, mine has 32053 on the butt socket but very feintly, almost invisible except with a spyglass, the etched number on the bodyside is 32083. I bet that'll bring on the pains when I come to dispose of it in years to come after someone has gone over it with a fine tooth comb - then tells me that it's not original!

On another note I don't think I've heard of the Rhodesian 4ts - I'd certainly be interested to hear more about their service over there, how they got there etc. One presumes, like the Israeli 4ts (as Mr Laidler has previously remarked), they were 'well used'. It would certainly be interesting to own one!

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Originally Posted by Brown Dog

I also notice that my bayonet lug proof mark is quite unlike that in the photo tour. Mine is stamped with 'BNP' under a crown. ".303" and then a small crossed sword stamp with 3 unreadable letters.

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Birmingham Nitro Proof - perfectly normal Civilian Proof marks.

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Originally Posted by Lance

The rifle looks original in my opinion and is most likely one that ran through H&H right before markings got standardized. The mount is questionable without more detailed pic's of her, and of course the scope is not original.

Both pads look original with a later armour's stake job, the "S" is correct.

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I agree.

I have a very early BSA T with the following markings;

On the butt socket.
B
1941
4637 (no prefix letter)
TR
There is a very small lightly struck F.T.R. between the B and 1941.

On the side wall.
Lightly struck No.4 Mk. 1 (the k and 1 are partial.)
No T on the sidewall

It has is a Crown 27 or Z7 E examiners mark on the right side of the bolt slot at the top of the butt socket
There is no S on the right side lug
There is no S51 on the butt stock and no rifle S/N on the stock ledge, but the scope S/N is on the top of the wrist.
It has the correct SM41 rear sight and the split front site.
The scope mounts are original and have been staked only once.
The fore stock has the correct rifle S/N.
The rifle has obviously been through rework and has a 1946 dated barrel.
The bolt is numbered to the rifle but there are slight traces of a previous number and its Long Branch bolt.

I have had several -experts ?- look at this piece and they all agree that it is a very early original T.
I have two other T's and a L42A1 with all the original marks intact and they are all slightly different in the way they were marked and the positioning of the marks.

Hello Brown Dog,
Your rifle M33920 went out to a dealer in Cornwall in May 1999. I think the dealer was receiving it for a customer.....perhaps the chap you bought it from?? Like all of the other 4T's that came to me in the batch we bought, it would have been partially stripped down; they all were, though all were perfectly genuine T's in need of some TLC. Many of them went out to other dealers either as is or refurbished. It is not uncommon to see rifles lacking the receiver side wall T & I think it has been well enough explained by Peter & other posters above - I can't really add anything.

I have no idea where the story about Rhodesia came from, certainly not me. Having said that I have been told to my face before now that the rifles I sold were from a batch 'that came out of Cyprus' & quoting me as the originator of the story. I'm afraid, so far as I know they were just good old fashioned ex-British/Commonwealth issue rifles. These stories seem to spring up from nowhere & are soon being quoted as gospel!

Concerning Charlie's 1941 BSA T I have little doubt that it will be correct. I have a couple from the batch. I am sure they are just amongst the earliest of H&H's conversions.......
Interestingly there were about 4 early (1941 dated) BSA's, 5 1941 ROFM's, 4 or 5 90L LB's & 2 trials T's in there as well. The balance were 'ordinary' 1943 to 45 dated M47C rifles. Luckily one of the Trials rifles was complete & the other nearly so.

Aaah! One of those deals of a lifetime....it'll never happen again.

ATB

All,

Thank you for the reassurances - I 'm new to this T business, bought this one on a middle-aged whim without any appreciation of the nuances and complexities that this site has revealed to me!

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Hello Brown Dog,
Your rifle M33920 went out to a dealer in Cornwall in May 1999. I think the dealer was receiving it for a customer.....perhaps the chap you bought it from?? Like all of the other 4T's that came to me in the batch we bought, it would have been partially stripped down; they all were, though all were perfectly genuine T's in need of some TLC. Many of them went out to other dealers either as is or refurbished. It is not uncommon to see rifles lacking the receiver side wall T & I think it has been well enough explained by Peter & other posters above - I can't really add anything.

I have no idea where the story about Rhodesia came from, certainly not me. Having said that I have been told to my face before now that the rifles I sold were from a batch 'that came out of Cyprus' & quoting me as the originator of the story. I'm afraid, so far as I know they were just good old fashioned ex-British/Commonwealth issue rifles. These stories seem to spring up from nowhere & are soon being quoted as gospel!

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Roger, thanks. Cornwall is spot on. The rifle has (I believe) one of your mounts on it and a mk3 scope. I love the feel of the thing, but confess to a moment of panic when I looked at the 'photo tour'! ( the markings on the scope are laid out differently too ).

I think a copy of Peter's book is on my 'must buy' list :)

I can thoroughly recommend Peter's books; both on the 4T/L42 & on the telescopes. Not sure who has them in stock in the UK but I suspect Brian Dick will have them....

ATB

DS Solutions has the scope booklet available in the UK. The Armourer's Perspective can be had directly from http://www.skennerton.com. I'm out of those here but just had a new batch of the telescope booklets printed as they are always in demand.