Buy the rifle not the story!!!!!

Well put Roger.

As we continue with this hobby, we will encounter more and more reworked and parts switched out rifles. Almost like detective work when picking up and examining a rifle.

In recent times I have other collectors bringing me their purchases for a check up and evaluation. I have noted that there are many full wood rifles floating around on the market that are quite obviously 'restored' by civilian owners. As most know, there is more to stocking up a Lee Enfield than just getting the barreled action to fit into the wood and getting the bands and handguards to fit.

Now when I look at a rifle that I might buy, I look for the signs. Same as in the world of collecting antique furniture , or cars, motor cycles or farm tractors.

I just find it ironic that some of the same commercial outlets that were profiting by selling mil spec rifles to the public converted into sporters, are now profiting by selling woodwork and parts to restore them back.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

but human nature being what it is the whole collecting world is not going to suddenly (or even gradually, in my opinion) adopt such measures. Most people aren't even fraudulently motivated (though some are), but simply will not be bothered to start stamping 'reproduction' or 'restoration' or whatever in the barrel channel of their forends, together with an essay summarising what they've done, to be stuffed into the stock bolt hole

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

However, I shall watch the development of the guidelines keenly!

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Thanks Roger. One thing that triggered this Thread in this direction was your post on another thread last month where you described a sniper that you had sold several years ago that had been fraudulently stamped with assorted codes to supervalidate its authenticity.

I have followed your posts as well as others and know, without question or doubt, that I TRUST your judgment and ethical standards. It is the reason why I sent my stripped ("skeletonized") LB Sniper to Brian Dick for full restoration -- because I TRUST him.

As a student of human behaviour, let me suggest that the actual percentage of people who will act in an honest, trustworthy way is far higher than most people predict. If we put together a set of "standards of excellence" or "principles and practices of restoration" or "ethical standards," and referred to them as the foundation of our work, I think, over the course of time, people would gravitate to this as a means of finding a trustworthy foundation for making complex decisions in the ambiguous, uncertain, and paradoxical world of historic guns. I know I would truly appreciate a set of standards or principles, which could be constructed jointly, and rather easily, from the fine members of this Milsurps "association."

Thanks Seaspriter. I reiterate that I think what you are trying to do, to formalise a set of guidelines on restoration, is a laudable thing. I wish you the best of luck, & trust you will keep us posted on developments.

ATB

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I reiterate that I think what you are trying to do, to formalise a set of guidelines on restoration, is a laudable thing. I wish you the best of luck, & trust you will keep us posted on developments.

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Thanks Roger. Actually I have done this several times before with professional associations I belong to. The task is generally not hard.
1) It starts with a group of volunteers who already naturally have the guidelines in their heads, and simply begin to codify these in writing. The volunteers form a Task Force that sets a time frame for getting the job done. In this case it would be a Joint Task Force representing collectors and restorers primarily (but not limited to) the Commonwealth and US. The guidelines are voluntary -- we aren't a law enforcement group!
2) Someone typically does a first draft (which is nothing more than a "target" for upgrades and refinements.) Often there are three "targets" or "themes"-- in this case I think I'm hearing three distinct themes:
- a) Code of Ethics
- b) Standards of Restoration
- c) Definitions
3) A website (in this case simply a Milsurps thread or threads) is set up for debating and refining the thinking -- sometimes called the "Delphi Method." With any luck, there is more convergence than divergence, which means the framework is most likely to be accepted by the entire group.
4) After the debate period is over, the Task Force formalizes it's recommendations.
5) Those who believe in the standards promote them on gun boards, embrace them in our restorations, and use them in buy/sell transactions at gun shows and auction sites, etc. etc. etc.

In this case, I'd suggest we limit our scope to Enfields (i.e. not Mausers, M-1s, etc) to keep things focused. If the other communities of interest want to join forces, we leave that pathway open for comment after the Enfield Task Force finishes, allowing for parallel development of guidelines in their communities. I don't want to speculate what other Milsurp communities would want to do, but there may be some interest on the M-1 side, as this is an important issue for those, like me, who also collect this species.

Any thoughts from others?

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

The Enfield No.8 that I recently used in a BR50 competition (beating about 100k-worth of modern high-tech in the process) was a sporterized example when I got it, already drilled and tapped for a scope. I fitted it out with original parts, and it is now a top-class rifle. But I am not pretending that it came thus from the factory.
My other No.8 (oops, what have I been writing about multiple copies!?!)

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Originally Posted by RobD

I wonder if I am a hoarder? In my defence, none of my Boer Mausers are identical - their serial numbers are different...

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Can't help but smile at these two posts as i have 2 No8s that have same serial number, so in fact i must be a hoarder:surrender:

Col. Enfield.

I would suggest there will be folks very interested in 50 years, as long as there is not a complete collapse of western civilization like that Rome saw. Fact is that with the Snider-Enfield the only major conflicts where it was "the arm" was the Abyssinian campaign of 1868, the search for doctor Livingston in the 1870s and as a secondary arm in the 1879 Zulu campaign. I guess also the 1886 upper Canada revolt. Yawn...... It was a transitional arm without a lot of combat history.

Now compare that to the Martini Henry: with one major war the 1879 Zulu war and a few other secondary ones, 1882 Egyptian campaign, 1885 Khartoum relief, 1896~1898 Sudanese campaign (secondary arm), it still is an arm most Brit collectors want, and very few ever actually shoot. Still the demand for Martini-Henrys has always exceeded the supply in my period of collecting from 1982 to the present day.

The No1 MK III had a long Commonwealth history: WWI, the Irish revolution and civil war, Spanish civil war (secondary role), WWII, Korea, Mau Mau rebellion, Malaysian conflict (secondary role) Rhodesian conflict (police issue), Cadet use until the 1960s, Australian reserve and cadet use until 1968, along with being the dominate 100 yard finals rifle from 1920 to 1968 at any imperial match or meet. Add to that all of the Non UK conflicts it was used in, such as the 1947 separation crisis in India, the Sino-Indian war of 1962, the Goa intervention 1962, the 1965 Paki-Indian war, the 1971 Paki-Indian war, the 1979 to 1989 Russo-Afghan war, the 1995~2001 Nepal crisis, early use in the US-Taliban war of 2001 to ?? The fact is you have an active use by this arm in so many conflict that it is sure to be one of the most historic rifles ever with a nearly continuous 100 year use history.

Even if the west goes under, the use of this rifle by pretty much every group in southeast Asia and the middle east will keep it of interest to some folks.

With something like 13 million made and about 900,000 still in use in India, I expect in 50 years you will still be able to buy ammunition for it as well as parts, though by then they may be new made. Folks are still shooting reproductions of US civil war arms and while that market has stagnated, it still exists.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

Will folks very interested in 50 years?

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This is an intriguing question. While we all know that it's somewhat a matter of supply and demand,. While the supply is fixed, the demand is going to be driven (up or down) by perceived value. What, then drives value? It will be people who want to buy Enfields.

Just look what's happened to the perceived value of M-1 Rifles and Carbines -- prices over $1,000 USD and even higher, climbing all the time. Why? Because they are valued -- because of the heritage, the story, the pictures, the history, the imagery, etc. -- along with the fact they were quality guns from day one. The same can be said for Winchesters, Colts, and Sharps along with many others.

On the opposite side stands the Chauchat Machine Gun, which, by nearly universal judgment, is considered one of the worst guns ever designed. How many people are collecting those compared to anything John Browning designed? Heck, we had his WWI designed guns on board my ship in Vietnam -- I carried a 1911 45, we had BARs issued to the Gunner's Mates and MaDeuces mounted on the top decks -- all a tribute to a fine design (like the Enfield) and highly collected today.

If we want Enfields to be in demand in the future, I think three things are necessary:
1) Technical Knowledge: what we are doing on this site is a big step in the right direction -- giving people technical knowledge and restoration insight so that the next generations of collectors and restorers can follow suit.

But we also need two additional things to perpetuate the legacy (I think we could do better at these):
2) Buyer Confidence: buyers must be able to know that what they get is legitimate -- an Enfield world they can trust, in other words a good/safe "investment" and
3) More "cache:"- the romance, the heroism, the accuracy, the passion, the war stories, the pictures -- which lead to a passionate commitment to the legacy.

Keep these three dimensions of the of the "value equation" alive and Enfields will be cherished for years to come.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

Col. Enfield.

I would suggest there will be folks very interested in 50 years, as long as there is not a complete collapse of western civilization like that Rome saw. Fact is that with the Snider-Enfield the only major conflicts where it was "the arm" was the Abyssinian campaign of 1868, the search for doctor Livingston in the 1870s and as a secondary arm in the 1879 Zulu campaign. I guess also the 1886 upper Canada revolt. Yawn...... It was a transitional arm without a lot of combat history.

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It was used in New Zealand for the Maori Wars in the late 1860s/early 1870s and they were also used a fair bit by the Colonial forces in Australia during the Bushranger Era, so they're quite well-known guns in this part of the world. I believe they were also used during the Boshin War in Japan as well.

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With something like 13 million made and about 900,000 still in use in India, I expect in 50 years you will still be able to buy ammunition for it as well as parts, though by then they may be new made. Folks are still shooting reproductions of US civil war arms and while that market has stagnated, it still exists.

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India is notoriously unwilling to share their Lee-Enfields, though - there might be nearly a million of them still in service there but I doubt they'll end up on the collector market when India is done with them, which is a shame. I am very fond of the Lee-Enfield and truly hope it's still a popular gun a century from now, but I suspect it may end up like the Mauser C96 today - a collectible arm of interest to a select number of people who appreciate its aesthetics and history, but will ammunition being expensive and hard to get.