Old Katana, or is it?

I recently bought a rough katana at auction, it was badly in need of restoration, just what I wanted to practice blade polishing on, it seemingly had an old blade. I had polished a shin gunto blade previously and wanted to go a step further.

I'm not sure about the blade now, I can't see a hamon, maybe something will appear during polishing. The tsuka seems pretty old as does the tsuba. The tsuba looks Edo period to me but I'm certainly not experienced enough to judge its age.

I've added some photos and would appreciate hearing some of your thoughts on this.

Taking the images from left to right, 1 is the tsuba end of the tsuka. 2 & 3 is one side of the tsuba. 4, 5 & 6 is the other side. 7 is the blade and 8 is two unfolded hishigami from under the ito wrap.

Thanks,
Ian

No signature of any kind on the tang?

If not, I would guess that the quality might indicate a sword made for the tourist/export trade before WWII. Such pieces were of course only made "good enough" for the market in both workmanship and style.

In fact there was a deliberate desire to clearly separate stylistically what was made for export and for the home market, even when the quality was comparable. A symptom of certain well known cultural attitudes that are still discernible in products today.

Is that a forging flaw or a pit about 5" back from the tip?

Thanks for the information, your explanation of a tourist piece seems to fit, although the tsuba and the tsuka seem very old. The tang isn't signed but there is something on the tsuba.

The tsuka matches traditional "manufacture", down to the hishigami, which are made with recycled printed paper or so it seems. This will be completely stripped down, refitted to the tang and re-glued , I can reuse the ray skin, make new hishigami and I already have the new cotton ito wrap.

The blade has no flaw and is only stained, or very very slightly pitted and should polish up OK. I've had to get a new habaki as the original is cracked and has been messed about. I'm leaving the polishing until I've got the materials I need to renovate it.

Ian.

Polishing is a skilled art indeed. We make much of the Japanese smiths, deservedly I suppose in many cases, but we have "amateur" smiths here in the West who not only forge, but file and polish their own "Japanese" blades. Wasn't the polishing generally done by specialists in Japan?

Certainly not a task where one can let the hand or mind wander!

The Romans had laminated blades, but for whatever cultural reasons we in the West never seem to have made quite the fetish of sharpening and polishing as in the East. Read something recently about 19th C Tulwars often being old European blades that had been very carefully sharpened (and probably reshaped on the bevels I suspect) Ferociously effective at cutting it was said, even with little force exerted.

As you know there was much skill displayed in replicas and the aging of them even long ago. It might be that explains the pitting on the tsuba or perhaps one that was "too far gone" to have any value on the home market and so was palmed off on the gaijin? The markings don't inspire confidence, but it's a field for the expert and I'm not one! ;)

Too bad there's no markings on the blade at all, I had a second war navy sword that was marked with a painted figure but at least that. The blade is beautiful, the Tsuba is tightened the way they did with copper and the markings might tell more. I saw a Hamon disappear completely on a Navy sword when polished... The Tsuka does LOOK old and I wouldn't do much until having more info... I'd love to have it too. Very nice.

Thanks for that Surpmil, always nice to get other guy's views. Unfortunately, I have no experience of Tulwars, otherwise I'm sure we would be discussing them in some depth.

Polishing in Japan is still it seems the highest quality, although there are commercial polishers in the west apparently doing a better job than some in Japan. I followed as close as possibl, the Japanese method of polishing my shin gunto arsenal blade which I think is oil quenched. I used wet and dry paper supported on two different wooden blocks from 280 grit to 10,000 grit, about 10 changes in grit. I left out the last three stages except for the 10,000 grit and will have to redo the polishing using the grits I left out and finishing on 10,000 grit. I wanted a rough old blade so that I could learn how to polish that and bring out the hamon.


Hi Jim, I'm just working away at learning all I can with these swords, I need a new hobby. I don't get out on the bikes like I used to and that wasn't often, Japanese swords will be less of a maintenance task, I hope.

I have a new set of files arriving today, can't remember when I bought a new one, probably forty years ago. I picked up a clamp from Toolstation yesterday, very strong spring, need it for when I wrap the tsuka. Also have some black laquer coming for a repair to the saya. Only decision to make is what paper I should use for the hishigami, originally, I think it was rice paper. I will research some more before I pass the point of no return. Ian.

I watched a hour show on the Japanese sword polishers. It is a 10 year apprenticeship done in the traditional method of living in the Masters home and getting paid a pittance well doing it. They basically spend 10 years with various stones and oils rubbing it back and forth exceptionally carefully. It is a art to be sure but my god I can't imagine having that be your life. Apparently there is a bit of a shortage because the demand from collectors has increased and the amount of people trained in the methods of doing it properly are going down significantly.

It's not the apprenticeship that I would go for that's for sure. I understand the charge for a traditional polish is around $100.00 per inch, I don't know if that's calculated from the blade length times both sides.

I've been watching some videos on polishing so that I follow the correct procedure.

Ian.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IanS

I understand the charge for a traditional polish is around $100.00 per inch

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Would make you want to keep your Katana in top shape...

Hi, I'm back again with another question I hope someone can answer. I would like to know what this menuki is/represents, it's been baffling me for days. It's shown in all three photos, the first and second photos show it in two positions and the third just shows both, one being clearly recognisable as a person. It might be clear to someone who sees it for the first time.

Attachment 115147Attachment 115148Attachment 115149

Incidentally, both are made of copper.

Thanks,
Ian.

The menuki look a bit like one of Hiroshige's waves behind that shell and the fat little fellow might be Hotei, a good luck deity IIRC.

Or maybe Bodai Daruma, but Hotei is sometimes shown with monkey attendants and a stick, and that might be one on the figure's right arm/stick?

Probably a bit of a stretch to suggest there is an allusion there to "wave men" as the ronin were called!

I had visons of getting my Katana sword polished up, I sourced a chap over east that was trained in Japan for those 10 years I asked about the tang and that would have cost me $200/Aud for the answer. I did get the maker here but have lost all the info due to a computer hard drive crash like I lost about 8 years of data aarrgh! Got it about 8-9 years ago it did not cost me much the price of a OA 1945 '07 bayonet & scabbard he wanted ($175/Aud) so pretty happy with the deal. The last pic shows the tang to have 3 holes makes me think it may have had another handle on it.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I had visons of getting my Katana sword polished up

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I think it looks fine just as is. Nice looking weapon.

The first one is a crested bird. A crane, perhaps? Or maybe a dragon? Anyway, that is a wing in the centre.

- I haven't a clue about Japanese swords, so my answer is not prejudiced by any specific knowledge :)

Hi Cinders,

You appear to have an old blade dressed up in military guise. The main giveaways are the tsuba, menuki and the saya. The holes in the tang usually indicate that the blade has been shortened, this most likely done when there was a legal requirement to do so and that's a long time ago. The blade is most likely a family blade used by a family member, serving as an army officer. The tang is very clean and usually it is pretty rusty when very old. I haven't a clue what the writing says, possibly the date made and or the smith's name. You can find the date conversions online as with the names of sword smiths, probably a time consuming job though. The value of the sword will be mostly in the blade, a lot more than $175Aud.

Hi Surpmil, hi Patrick,

thanks for the input, it's very helpful and very much appreciated

Ian

Had another look at the puzzling menuki and having looked more closely, it seems there are two sets of clenched claws/toes, under what could be described as the neck or crop of a crane.
In the circumstances, I'm going to accept Patrick's explanation. Surpmil will have to forgive me unless of course, he agrees too.

I'm glad I asked for help as I can now continue wrapping the tsuka.

Ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I had visons of getting my Katana sword polished up, I sourced a chap over east that was trained in Japan for those 10 years I asked about the tang and that would have cost me $200/Aud for the answer. I did get the maker here but have lost all the info due to a computer hard drive crash like I lost about 8 years of data aarrgh! Got it about 8-9 years ago it did not cost me much the price of a OA 1945 '07 bayonet & scabbard he wanted ($175/Aud) so pretty happy with the deal. The last pic shows the tang to have 3 holes makes me think it may have had another handle on it.

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It was me Ron, who sent you the info should be on a thread here somewhere, a dealer I know specialises in Japanese swords, so if anyone wants info just send a PM etc.

All the same to me Ian!;) Could be a bird - there is what might be the representation of an eye - even a few indentations that might be an allusion to feathers there on the 'shoulder'. The 'head' resembles a Pterodactyl more than any bird I can think of though - hang on, Crested Ibis maybe?

Can't really see a wing there though; bird and shell maybe?

Cinders, the only thing that catches my untrained eye is the last Kanji has been over-struck on another and the tang doesn't show much age. The extra peg holes if I remember what I read many years ago, were sometimes added to give the impression of age, and it's hard to see how the tang could ever have been long enough for those two holes near the end to actually function. They are far enough out of the way however, to perhaps give 'the look' without weakening the tang?

Any capture history on the sword? Once or twice they've shown up around here with inscriptions in Japanese on old cloth tags attached to the scabbard.

Well, I've taken the renovation to a level I'm happy with for the present. Will do more with the blade once I have learnt how to bring up the hamon (temper line). I saw the hamon at one stage of the polishing but lost it as I progressed to finer grits. I bought a new habaki (brass "wedge" at top of blade) as the original was in a bad state, I cut the new one down to fit the blade. The tsuba (hand guard) was a bit loose so I added some copper and it fits fine now. I was told that the tsuba is sukashi pierced) and early Edo, (early 1600's).

The tsuka (hilt) is very old but I don't think it's as old as the tsuba, I stripped it right down as it was unglued and had several splits down the grain. When I took the old ito (tsuka wrap) off, it fell to pieces. It's fully rebuilt and lightly reinforced with wood veneers and has been re-wrapped with a new ito. That's another job for the future, re-wrapping properly, using traditional resin.

The saya (scabbard) is very old too, possibly the same age as the blade which I don't know. I spliced in a piece of wood at the koiguchi (blade entrance) where a piece was missing and sprayed the saya in a satin black, it really needed re-lacquering which can still be done if it's worth doing.

I've attached some photos, one shows the state of the blade prior to polishing.

When I get time, I'll upload a photo of my latest acquisitions. Katana with a 700 year old blade and another with a 400 year old blade.

Very nice piece. I had a WW2 navy sword that needed some polish and the Hamon also disappeared. I was crushed...gone. It was so clear before too. Looking forward to your other blades.

Hi Jim, trust you are well. Thanks for the comments, it doesn't look as good as the photos, but a great deal better than it was. I have a good idea on how to get the hamon back, but I need to research it first. I found that if I had a good polish on the hamon, using a slightly coarser grit gently, could show it up as the edge being harder was less prone to show the faint scratches. I intend to use the traditional method once I have learnt it!!!

Here are the two "oldies".

From left to right,

400 year old blade. 400 year old blade.
700 year old blade. 700 year old blade, note the combat cuts on the side of the blade. Probably from the Genko wars in the early 1300's.

The hamon on both blades can be seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IanS

the two "oldies".

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Very nice blades. I can see the battle damage, also the last pic shows one nick in the edge from same...very nice.

Hi Jim, I've just received an email about the katana I've just rebuilt. My contact thinks the blade is late Koto, early Shinto, that's 1500's into 1600's. He'll have a better idea when he handles it, I don't know when that will be.

Best wishes,
Ian.