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There are fragmentary references to early telescopic sights in the late Victorian era, and it seems the NRA of GB had some competitions that permitted them, even before the Great War.
This is an example by Alex Henry from I assume the 1880s or 90s.
Has anyone seen another similar or the same, or a rifle with bases for something like this?
This would be Match Rifle; still a major discipline within the NRA (GB) and Australia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
Match rifle whilst only allowing 7.62mm/.308 gives the competitor the choice of whatever bullet weight he or she chooses; during the interwar period there were many experiments by the match rifle fraternity to develop the MkVII to a higher degree with the help of ICI who were producing rifle ammunition at the time.
Ah Yes. I have one that is identical, although whilst I do not have bases for it the back end of the scope bears a mounting plate (for the want of a better description) that is contoured to fit an Lee Enfield or Lee Metford rifle body. It is not dated but I have assumed that it is probably around the 1890's to 1900 era. Busy day today but I'll try & get some photo's of it later.
Interesting old optic.
😭😣😫 yet another antique scope I now need.
Tell me there is no history of military use....
There certainly should have been!Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheal Doyne
Photo's taken late at night in artificial light by technologically challenged photographer, but I think you can see what we were alluding to; the shaped plate & also the bolt & wing nut, which as far as I can see would have necessitated the drilling of a transverse hole through the butt socket.
Roger you have just explained and showed the answer to what the %$#@ was on this rifle. Have seen several with holes in the Butt socket.:beerchug:
Ha! Glad to be of service............had any of the rifles still got their front base on them.....???? I presume the bolt & plate attachment served as the rear anchoring point.
Not that I remember. The Martini is not my curse. The early LEs with a hole did not go right through and was for a different target sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
Surpmil, Roger,
Do either of these scopes have a minute of angle scale on them; if so what does it go to?
Yes, that's a good question what the graduations actually are. As mine is missing the "base" which had half the elevation vernier I can't say much, but Roger's clearly has as many as 12 regular graduations on the elevation.
Having seen references to these sights being used at extreme ranges "back in the day", perhaps that suggests a 2400 yard maximum elevation, but I suspect the windage screw may also be just some arbitrary interval decided on by the pitch of the screw and the whim of the maker.
One says "Fitted by Alex. Henry...." and the other does not, so that implies that he was not the maker of at least that scope, if not both. Who then?
Dr. Common, Daniel Fraser...??
Very optimistic distance given the lenses available at that time. And the equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
A brief look through my 1908 Bisley Bible, (complete with original pencil!) shows the maximum distance for Match Rifle as 1100 yards with all other distances listed as 800, 900 and 1000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
I suspect the 1200 yard firing point for Bisley was yet to be built.
I don't think the reference I saw was to Bisley particularly; I will see if I have it saved somewhere. Col. Davidson's memoir that might shed some light on this: Memoirs of a Long Life : Sir David Davidson : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
There was some agitation in the early 1890s, apparently chiefly by a C. F. Lowe for a special NRA competition for telescopic sights, but this was not accepted by the leadership of the NRA at the time.
Mr. Lowe seems to have made a study of the subject as this clipping shows. (to follow)
Gents, I must confess that after having bought this scope about ten years ago because I thought it was historically significant & not too expensive, I have not paid it a great deal of attention. However, I've tried to get a few more photo's in an attempt to show range markings. I really know little about it & can only guess as to who was the designer..........Dr Commons maybe???
There it is in the third photo: graduated up to 1000 yards. The markings on the right hand side are a bit curious: what might be the point of engraving 800, 900 and 1000 on both sides?
I've tried to brighten up that photo; are the numbers actually 800 and so on, or 80, 90 and 100?
800, 900, 1000 - marked the same on both parts. There is also a scale; 0, 10, 20, 30............90, 100 on the rear edge of the movable piece, which butts up to another scale on the rear face of the piece attached by the two screws! Youmay be able to see it in the fourth photograph in post number 16.
Just been playing about with it, & by slackening of the thumb screw on the bottom, the plates fit together snugly & the adjustment is then effected by further screwing or unscrewing of the thumb wheel at the bottom. Obviously, when on a rifle, the plates are also held together by the shaped piece to fit in the safety/volley sight notch & by the bolt & wing clamp fitment.
I think.
The lack of an 1100 yard mark may give a slight indication to the age of the scope.
The longest range at Wimbledon was 1000 yards; when the NRA moved to Bisley in 1888/89 they enjoyed the longer distance of 1100 yards. I need to do some more research to establish when the 1200 firing point was built at Bisley.
This mount design and function to adjust the scope is very similar to the design Voigtländer used for the scopes they sold to Norway to be issued on Krag 1894 rifles at around the 1910 period (they were really optimistic, with a range up to 2200!).
The open sights went out to what range? For lobbing fire why not the scopes?
The long distance was for volley fire, as in the age of massed formations and muzzleloading, and you expect the enemy to advance in columns and masses. Telescopes weren't in good supply and fitted for participation in volleys. They could be used, but you need large numbers of bullets falling at the same time for volley to be effective.
I doubt lots of volley fire would be good for telescope mountings at that time.