Hi Folks, anyone offer any help on this rifle. Looking for possible history, is it legit, any pointers. Thanks in advance.
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Hi Folks, anyone offer any help on this rifle. Looking for possible history, is it legit, any pointers. Thanks in advance.
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It looks a real one to me, but there are two caveats.
Firstly, it is not in original WW2 trim as it has seen Indian service. Some of the 4T's used by the Indians were converted to Mk1/2 trigger configuration. Probably at the same time as this was done the original wartime markings were linished off & the rifles re-serialled SMLE style on the RHS of the receiver ring. They were also marked on the RHS of the butt socket by the Indians. From what I recall they are generally dated 1962 or 63 here. This is not the original date of manufacture, but the date of the Indian refurb/upgrade.
Secondly, with very few exceptions, Indian rifles had a very hard life & usually look........er, how can I put it.....'well loved' by the time they hit the collector/civvy shooter market. This one is very pretty & I am sure it has been refinished. The wood also looks to be a replacement set, & lacks the so-called 'Ishy screw'. It is difficult to be sure one way or the other, but it is quite possible that the scope was therefore mated to this rifle relatively recently.
But is it a real 4T? I'd say, yes, but it didn't look quite the same as it does now when it left Holland & Hollands in 1944 (or whenever).
Thanks Roger, what you tell me pretty much goes along with my own appraisal / assumption and confirms what Ive been told. I would be greatfull for any further info on Indian service No4 T's just to put some history around the rifle. Ive searched the Internet and not come up with much.
Try typing "indian no.4(t)"any other text variant in Milsurps.Com search box in the top right corner of the website. ;)
Lots of threads on the subject.
Regards,
Doug
I'm not aware of a lot of info on the rifles that saw service in India TBH Pete. People ask questions about them on this forum from time to time, so it might be worth trawling the relevant archived threads here. AFAIK the Indians never set up any 4T's of their own, though it is sometimes said they did, but the few claims I know about were rifles such as the one in question here, that had been linished clean of all original markings. Often, when you look carefully, you may see clues as to the original rifle manufacturer, such as a magazine cut-off slot indicating a Trials rifle, or the rifle may be a Mk1* indicating Long Branch or Savage manufacture. The Indians did not convert all of their rifles to Mk1/2 spec - a lot were left as Mk1's (or now & then, as Mk1*'s) & these retain their original markings, though they often have the receiver side wall designation 'No4 Mk1' freshened up by hand stamping. Not all do, & I have had a couple of nice 43 BSA's & a lovely 44 BSA that were ex-Indian rifles. I suspect the 44 was virtually unfired, & must have spent its service life on the officer's mess wall to have escaped in such good condition!
Thanks Doug.. ive now worked out how this site is set up and found the search button, which has got me twice as far already. Thanks Roger, i've this Indian and 2 other No4 T's heading my way, I bought them last week. My intention is to sell 2 onward and keep the most interesting one for my collection. Only other Enfield I have is a No4 Mk2 that i was presented with by my last unit when I left the Army and an L1A1 i bought about 3 years ago that was rebarreled and civilianised by LDT. Ive never worked on a No4 much, but do know my way around the L42. I', looking forward to the rifle's arriving.
Here is a very similar one. https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-...-31483254.html
Here are some more pics https://www.agsheritagearms.co.uk/ri...-sniper-rifle/
Some No. 4 (T) rifles in Indian service retained their original manufacturing's name or code along with the serial number. Others, like the one under discussion, appear to have had most of their original markings removed and Indian markings put on.
Here are some serial numbers apparently assigned by the Indian Rifle Factory Ishapore.
A0075T No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T)
A0138T No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T)
A0152T No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T) <<<<<
A0157T No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T)
A0250T L42A1
A0257T No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T)
A0295T No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T)
A0324T No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T)
A0342T No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T)
A0539T No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T)
A1173T ? No. 4 Mk. I /2 (T)
Aye thats' the one Roy, and 2 more from Richard at Divisesgunsmith.
In short it is only the Mk1/2 upgrades that are linished & re-serialled. Those left in Mk1 configuration retain their original markings & serial numbers.
Someone has been treating themselves :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete110119
Interesting site to nose around. I see my old PH M82 sold on there. Eye watering price inflation since I sold it just over three years ago! Shame it's lost its Kahles scope and has been re-stocked too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy W
Pete, you might find this thread relevant as well.. halfway down page 2 onwards https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=57331&page=2
Thanks Dan.. Yes same rifle. Thanks for the tip. Some of these old interesting rifles are rising in price. I got a fair Deal on the 3 Ive bought though. I see Tons of old Mauser‘s here, once in a Blue Moon a Parker Hale, But never an Enfield. I was threading a 1908 manufactured Mauser this Morning.