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Good evening from a hot South Africa,
I have been trying to get information on the Lee Enfield No.4 Mk2. rifle front sight windage adjustment. I bought one recently and after testing accuracy it is clear that the windage has to be adjusted.
From information obtained off the Web it appears that windage cannot be adjusted with the rear flip up sight and that a special tool is needed to adjust windage on the front sight.
I will be grateful if someone can help me with this information.
Regards
Its really just a matter of drifting the front sight blade across; it doesn't really matter if you have the solid sight base or the one with a friction screw - a gentle tap with a punch or similar instrument is sufficient to drift the blade across.
As a rough guide, one width of the front sight blade gives you about 5" adjustment on the target at 100 yds.
Adjustment of the Front sight is easy if you have the right tool.
You need a driver with a slot cut into it.
Rather than buy one, I found a suitable diameter screw driver in my kit. It was a phillips head that was past its prime.
Make sure that your selected driver has a shaft diameter small enough to fit into the front sight.
I simply cut of the phillips end and then I cut suitable slot into the end of the remaining shaft.
Followed by a quick cleanup with a small file and a coating of oil for protection
Ten minutes of fiddleing in the shed resulted in one front sight adjustment tool.
Correctly adjusting the front site to accurately zero the rifle is another story.
Hope this helps.
Paul
:)
Or better still, just replace the crap reverse screw in the foresight block with a 4BA allen bolt and be done with it!
The original screw was there so as to be 'soldier proof' It might have been but it was also Armourer proof too once they'd been there for over a week and had corroded a bit!
I have never read such drivel for front site windage adjustment for the Enfield No. 4 Mark 1/2.
Always use the CORRECT tool even if you have to make the thing. Never ever use a drift punch.
To adjust the front sight on the SMLE Enfield requires three tools (1)slotted screw driver with a 5 mm head, (2) a locking screw too (I made mine), and (3)Sight Adjustment Tool (I purchased my from Numric Gun Parts Corp. through my local gun shop). A forth tool, a mm ruler may be used if one does not purchase the Sight Adjustment Tool. The ruler is used to measure the increment adjustments as you bring the front sight blade to center on the rifle in its location.
The front sight is locked with a locking screw that must be released before adjustment can be made. I made my tool to unlock the front screw. Use a screw driver, either Philips or Slotted that has a shaft diameter of 5 mm. Cut of the end of the screw driver (flatly/square with the shaft). Then cut a 2mm slot on the end of cut off and in the middle. I used a cold chisel to mark where I would cut. The depth of cut was 2 and ½ to 3 mm. This tool will fit into and over the head of the locking screw. For the cutting I used my Dremel tool with cutting disks. Simple job.
Undoing or sufficiently loosening the lock screw allows the front sight blade to be adjusted left or right. Doing this properly will prevent damage to the front sight assembly.
Now there is a front sight windage adjustment tool that can be used, and this tool requires that the front cap be removed to align the tool with the front sight. On my No. 4 this is held on with one slotted screw.
The Front Sight Adjusting tool was purchased through my local gun shop, but the manufacturer is Numeric Gun Parts Corp. Address: 226 Williams Lane, PO Box 299, West Hurly, New York 12491. Toll free number is 866 686 7424; Web: e-gunparts.com.
The part number is 255950.
Do enjoy.
RD Skidmore, Prof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDSkidmore
Nice intro!...
I made this tool for adjusting the sights of a No.4, and if I could do that I'm sure that there are lots of others who can. It works very well. I also live in South Africa and if you happen to live in the Johannesburg region, you are welcome to borrow it.
Attachment 32587
Yes. Reminds me of that book/film/etc.: "How to Win Friends and influence people".Quote:
Originally Posted by tbonesmith
Good morning RD Skidmore. I'll not beat about the bush............. I have been an Armourer since I started my apprenticeship in January 1963. When I say 'Armourer' I don't mean an enthusiastic amateur or one who has tinkered with a few No4's and the like, but I mean a REAL Armourer who's been there,and done that - you know the spiel......... I am also a graduate engineer so from that, you can take it that when I tell you something about a No4 rifle, having spent my formative years, on the bench, fixing literally - and I mean it - hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands of them, day in and day out AND range testing, accuracy testing and zeroing huge piles of them, you and the rest of this forum can take it that when I tell you about sights and zeroing, then it's the real McCoy.
Now come closer and listen as I don't want everyone to hear........... The issue tool to adjust the foresight, regardless of whether it has got a reverse headed keeper screw or not, is a complete waste of rations. Say that after me slowly..... 'A COMPLETE WASTE OF RATIONS' Good.
It was taught during your apprenticeship, together with the variations per turn by rote. But once you got out into the real world, it was left back in the workshop cupboard along with the other theoretical crap, while you learned from the more experienced Armourers, who had served from Monte Cassino to Korea how things were REALLY done.
There IS a place for the forked/reverse headed screwdriver and foresight cramp. You could give it to someone you don't like as a fishing weight or you could slip it into your range bag so that you will look like a bit of a wally (you know the saying, all the gear and no idea) if anyone peeks in.
Real Armourers as opposed to the all the gear and no idea queens just know that on a No4 rifle it's 'FORESIGHT INTO THE ERROR' So if your shots are sneaking over to the left at, say 100 yards, just a slight tweak of the foresight blade to the left with a brass drift and small hammer through the foresight protector will do the job. Oh yes, I almost forgot. A real Armourer will just KNOW from years and years of experience exactly hyow much to move the foresight over too.
There, that wasn't toooooo difficult was it. Now just a little decorum from now on and you'll be welcome. But, it's not wise to tell the most senior Armourer in the Army that what he's written about sights and zeroing and what you've read is drivel.
Thunderbox and that Peter Laidler bloke, you can both now rest assured that you're dead right
Now now Peter put your claws away I'm sure he meant well, next time he will probably think a little more carefully about how he phrases what he wants to say. When he realises just how great the depth of knowledge and first hand experience of Enfield rifles is on this forum he will hopefully understand that what the book says and what is actually done is not always the same thing.........:bash:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Thanks Peter. I use a drift on all of my rifles and have done ever since I learned how to do so in the CCF at school.
Until yesterday, I didn't realise quite how naughty I had been but now, in your company, it doesn't seem quite so bad after all. :D
Someone asked exactly WHY the |No4 (and No5 and Sterling) foresight tools are useless and it's only fair to tell you. The first thig is that you have to unwind and wind in the screws for every rifle that needs adjustment. And it's usually every one when they've been FTR'd. And secondly, it sits over the foresight protector that is never a good snug fit in the cramp so when you do need to move the blade over to the left by the amount you have calculated after having learned the formula by rote (only to forget it immediately after the exam I hasten to add), you find that the screw touches the edge of the foresight blade and the next half turn or so doesn't move the blade at all................ NO! It just takes up the backlash between the cramp and the protector until it starts to bite. By which time your calculations are half a turn out which is x" at 100 yards which means that the.....so the left side screw must now be released another half turn - or is it tightened up................?
Someone else also suggested that tapping the side of the blade with a small hammer and brass drift might move the foresight block unless it's supported and......... No it won't believe me. The foresight block band is sat astride two full length positioning lugs and it ain't going to move nowhere!
Glad the sights on my slingy thingy dont need adjusting. You can borrow it if you like Peter.
Come on RDSkidmore.......... money where your mouth is time. A reply is called for
Capt. Laidler,
Most of us on this site would not challenge your knowledge; your inside view is what makes this board the best one out there (though I also like the Gunboard’s forum for Mosin-Nagants). Now having been in possession of incorrect information in the past, I would ask for clarification, though your explanation of the problem with the sight tool has more or less done that. Perhaps the guilty party thinks that discretion is the better part of valor in this case.
That said, in defense of the “guilty” party, some folks here in the US have a bit of a heavy hand and it can be painful to see the “adjustments” they make to what were formerly perfect arms. We call them “bubba” and perhaps because of our less restrictive laws the honor rendered to surplus arms is not that common in some quarters. Things like urethane finish, drilled action bodies for dubious sights, cut back wood, etc. To have a very nice No 4 MK II that has the drift sight (not the screw type foresight block) dinged up is painful to see for many of us. That may have been where the fellow was coming from.
No actual Enfields were harmed in this posting…….
This guy seems to be OK at golf so how come he is so heavy handed with a hammer and drift???? only joking congrats on the "Masters" win...Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick303
If I am reading this correctly the origional post was dated 25/11/2010, RDSkidmores response is dated 05/04/2012, has he managed to reply to a thread that was started 15 months ago???
I hear what you're saying Fred, it's just that I don't accept some complete unknown saying that my initial comments, nor those of TBox were drivel. It's OK if they were indeed drivel, but they weren't. They were based on (and I hope I speak for TBox here......) TBoxes many, many years in the commercial No4/Enfield world and mine in the military world and the Engineering Officer at the Small Arms School no less....... The cheek of it!
I don't mind that he resurrected an old thread (sometimes it's an excellent idea), but he hasn't been back since to this site after his post! So no point in getting worked up over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buccaneer
They are both supposed to be adjusted with the "proper" tool. Its just that one of them has to be "unlocked" first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick303
Perhaps I'm missing something. I realise that persons vastly more experienced than I regard the No.4 sight adjusting tool as being a waste of time. However, as mentioned previously in No.7 I made one, and with my limited ability to provide an expertly graded "tap" in the necessary direction, have found it most useful.
I'm the first person to admit that there is some slack to take up when tightening up either of the screws. What is more, this varies from rifle to rifle. Nevertheless, I've found that when turning the appropriate screw, the point where the slack has been fully taken up is easily felt. Thereafter, a 90 degree turn (with the thread that I used) equals almost exactly one MOA.
The reason I made the device in the first place was on account of the somewhat patchy success I have found using the other method. Surely, there is place for such gadgets if one does not have the necessary experience to develop the knack of an appropriate degree of force ? Whereas the professional may make such adjustments virtually on a daily basis, someone like myself might do it once in six months or less. I'm sure that there are many in a similar position.
Beerhunter,
Glad we are on speaking terms.
I was making reference to folks who had used rather blunt instruments to make the adjustment, so that an otherwise pristine example of a No 4 MK I/2 had the paint flaking off on the side of the sight base and sight protector where someone had used brute force to move the sight, as well as a slight indent on the sight itself. My recollection was it was one of the sight bases that had a screw to secure the sight post in the sight base.
One of the other issues I have seen is a mint No 4 MK II that was for sale that had had POF fired out of it with only a light hoppes cleaning. The rust fouling was clearly visible and the seller said that if I bothered to “shoot out the fouling” it would be bright and shiny.
Oh Vey…………..
Because here in the US Lee-Enfields were very cheap for many years and the relatively easy purchase requirements, it is not uncommon to see a nice example badly treated. It makes the Enfield fans weep.
Not excusing the relatively poorly worded comments, just giving the possible context.
Regards
FRS
With regards to the use of the useless tool, don't forget that we didn't have any adjusting tool for the Bren or the pistol. Guess what we used........? Yep, a brass drift and............. a hammer!
But he hasn't come back so I guess that here endeth the lesson!
I'd be guessing that he is hiding in his basement in Lancaster, California, with his tail between his legs, realizing that he chastised someone with spades more knowledge then he did.
It has been my experience that most people become very quiet and tend to disappear when they are shown the truth by someone more knowledgeable then they are.
RDSkidmore
https://www.milsurps.com/images/tact...er-offline.png Member
He never even checked back in to see the responses, unless it was through another member's name. He posted and scrammed. Very odd!
- Join Date
- Apr 2012
- Last On
- 04-05-2012 @ 01:59 AM
Phooey, it reminds me that I forgot to take a photo of the homemade screwdriver. Maybe by Saturday?
Hopefully resurrecting an old thread isn't punishable offence.
I've got an No.4 MK.1* needing front sight base screw. Is the correct 'modern' type a 4BA 5/8"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Hi Peter
you may remember my question about the No5 front sight adjusting tool fitting the No 4 Mk 2, and your answer was no it won't try using drift and hammer, well before I got a chance to use drift and hammer a friend loaned me a No 4 adjusting tool and guess what you just as you stated with your wonderful knowledge it was about as much use as trying to move it with a ripe banana, after returning the tool to my friend I used a small hammer and brass drift, two little taps later I was bang on target. I bow to knowledge of all things Enfield.
In my long career as an (amateur) pilot, I always gained much pleasure from ambitious amateurs attempting to measure up to well qualified professionals. T´was ever a laugh a minute and I usually learned a bit on their eventful demise.
Did you upset him JM? or was it Peter?:madsmile:
We all have our talents. Unfortunately, sometimes only others experience them...:pQuote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008
I wouldn't worry too much. For such a knowledgeable bloke, he doesn't know the difference between a No.4 and SMLE!
Before using the brass drift, do you need to back out the screw a little? Also, where is a good place to buy a internal hex head screw for a replacement?
I have never backed off the reverse headed screw prior to using the brass drift. As for the reverse headed screw being so called 'squaddie proof'. Someone ought to tell them that there is NO such thing! 4BA allen screws should be readily available by the dozen off Ebay or the like. Someone ought to buy a pack and sell the odd ones on
He must still be busy undoing his screw and adjusting the sights with the proper tools !!
For screws in the U.S. you can also try britishfasteners.com. I don't know if they have a minimum order requirement or not.
Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but it appears to be the most recent and cogent one here for my question.
Peter,
You state a tap with a brass drift on the blade is all it takes. Do mean that your are aligning the blade itself with the drift (ie. bending the blade without moving the base via the drift and hammer), or are you drive the base itself across as one would normally adjust a dovetailed sight? I want to be sure before I take a drift to anything.
Thanks,
-Jenrick
Let me answer with another question............ Do you REALLY and truly believe, in all your wildest dreams that I or anyone on this particular forum would seriously be suggesting that you use the drift to bend the blade to suit?
Hopefully no one bites my head of for making my own very basic tools for front sight adjustments on my No4's - To undo the screw and drift the blade - made from broken clamp and a damaged screw driver bit.
I use a sharp lead pencil to mark the blade position before any adjustments, so I can tell how far I've moved it.
I simply flip it over to change from drifting blade left or right.
Which is exactly why I asked the question. Better to ask a stupid question then do something stupid and such...Quote:
Let me answer with another question............ Do you REALLY and truly believe, in all your wildest dreams that I or anyone on this particular forum would seriously be suggesting that you use the drift to bend the blade to suit?
Thanks for the timely answer.
-Jenrick
That is a very nicely made tool. Selling them? The one from Numrich is a bit expensive.
Please purchase a SAIS #2 from http://www.skennerton.com on the No.4 rifle. These precious little booklets have a reprint of the REAL illustrated parts catalog so that you can learn the proper terminology for the parts. The $10 investment is worth it's weight in gold when trying to discuss these issues let alone spend your hard earned money buying spare parts!
Never a truer word spoken Brian. I used to use old well thumbed oily copies on my workbench until I retired and left them for the other Armourers that hadn't even used Brens and Vickers guns. Re the Tool, adjusting foresights........
Kent, believe me........, you really don't need one. A total waste of space, time and effort and I never knew a real Armourer who ever used one. Just ask yourself this simple question. If we really did need to use one of these ill fitting tools (and the No4 and 5 ones were dire.....) why didn't we get one for the Bren or Vickers or Mk2 Sten or the No2 pistol or.................. And another thing...... How come they were any use given that they were so ill fitting over the protectors?
You just need to remember this simple formula. Foresight into the error. Backsight out of the error. Or if your shots are going left, move the foresight left!
I enjoyed reading this and it has made me feel better about myself at the same time. When I started into Enfields many years ago I learned as I went along. My first front sight adjustment, and all ever since, have been done with a brass punch and hammer. All the while I would think that I really did need to get one of those proper front sight adjustment tools. Just never did though. Don't have to now. Been doing it the "correct" way since the beginning.
Thanks!
It's the difference between in the class room as snotty nosed apprentices and what the real Armourers taught you once you were out in the real world. Another similar 'tool' was the tool designed, probably by Biffo the Bear or Alice in Wonderland somewhere for removing the L1A1 rifle extractor, stay and spring. Thumb levers, axis pins, pins split joints. What an absolute palava. When every Armourer knew after the first time he used it that the very best tool was the tough little pin actually made for the job, fixed to the combination tool. Both would/could let the stay and spring fly out into the great unknown so you just pointed it towards your waist so that if the spring and stay did fly out, it just flew into your overalls!
I do say old boy I've never followed such drivel and shan't spend a moment more entwined in such meager toil. Prof. Nincompoop
LOL..!
And we won't miss you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Man