The new .22 conversion kit has landed!

Morning all,

I received my new conversion kit just before Christmas, the only example of Rays work to get to the UK so far.

A few good friends proved invaluable in the process, Dean in Wichita and Neal Parnham (Suffolk Rifles), Dean grabbed the kit from the Fal-files market place on my behalf and Neal, a fellow L1A1 nutter and co-conspirator/enabler on my varied inch pattern projects, imported it via his FFD connections and had it proofed for me.

The quality of the kit is superb, really beautifully made, I did have a few issues to deal with, first one, the liner wouldn't fit my L1A1's bore, so required a few slight adjustments.

The liner was sort of Teflon / park coated, before I very cautiously placed it in a bench jig, then with the full knowledge that I might just totally screw up the sole example of Rays work this side of the great pond ... using 2000 grade wet or dry with oil and then bore polish, I gradually reduced the diameter by the tiniest fraction, now when I say reduce, we are talking half the width of a gnats private parts here.

Now the liner fits snugly into the bore of my SP Enfield L1, I also had to cut away the hammer connecting arm from a spare safety sear, as the new bolt lacks the tripping extension of the original L12A1 bolt group.

All working very well now, pics and range report when my workload drops back a bit...

Cheers, John.

And of course we'll be waiting. Can't wait to see how it resembles it's predecessor.

Here are a few pics of the set up (while still in the States), including a spare original liner the kit picked up on route to the UK. The magazines are Fal, but function fine with my L1..

I will post some when I get to the range.Attachment 68911Attachment 68912Attachment 68913

"I gradually reduced the diameter by the tiniest fraction, now when I say reduce, we are talking half the width of a gnats private parts here."


WOT???? THAT MUCH ? I´d only have removed less than half the width of a small gnat´s pubic hair.

Please explain how it works. I´ve been looking for an ex-GDR Kalashnikov in .22 that was issued for paramilitary training to schools. `Twas a simple blowback that was supposed to work full auto AND single round.

Hi Villiers,

Same here, a very simple blow back bolt group, you cock the rifle, remove the full-bore bolt group, drop in the bore liner, drop in the .22lr bolt group, close and shoot ... This kit will only shoot semi auto as it lacks the safety/auto sear trip extension of the original L12A1 kit.

Compared to a lot of dedicated .22 semi autos on the market it seems to be a very reliable system indeed.

Worth remembering that the kit that you have contains MANY original parts too.

Those UK L1A1 owners who want a sub cal kit should know that a personal import is extremely simple and cheap. And you don't need to have it proofed either!

Looks good too...I'd love to wring one out. I shot lots of them and they were great.

He's got the term for reducing the diameter of the barrel correctly. Just checked my Machinery's handbook plus the official Army words and phrases list and it's there, listed as suitable for workshop use.

'GNATS KNACKER'. Reduction in weight, diameter, height or width by a trifling amount

That's the same as a a "RCH" me thinks! Need to find one to measure. :p

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

GNATS KNACKER

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This unit of measure is correct, in Scottish parlance it would be a "Midgies' d*ck"...but it's the same.

My 1964 Zeus tables also supports fly castration sized adjustments for turning, milling, grinding and sheet metal fabrication. Limits and fits are also covered with several "snug" slurs..

I wonder if the apprentices and the engineers of today still have Zeus tables/charts handy today - still smeared with engineers blue? Or is it just hands-on REAL engineers

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Worth remembering that the kit that you have contains MANY original parts too.

Those UK L1A1 owners who want a sub cal kit should know that a personal import is extremely simple and cheap. And you don't need to have it proofed either!

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I'll second Peter's advice. I personally imported an original kit from North America last year (as allowed with a suitable variation on your firearms certificate). No need to go to UK Border Agency Coventry hub to collect either as after paying the customs fees online, Royal Mail even delivered it to my door.

What variation wording is required on the UK FAC?

Is it one space for a sub calibre kit, or one spare barrel and one spare receiver?

Roy,

I put in a covering letter with my variation application explaining that it was for a ".22 conversion kit comprising a barrel and bolt" for an existing full bore rifle and it was granted on my FAC simply described as ".22 barrel and bolt" - no need to specify which rifle it's a conversion kit for.

Once the sub-cal kit - or firearm, which it effectively is - is entered on your UK firearms certificate, that is your import licence, and authority to possess in the UK. It is also the basis on which the US (or other) exporter can apply for his export licence if required. Done it loads of times including the re-import of my single shot SA80 from Canada in the late 80's

In some cases you might need a covering letter from the Board of Trade just to emphasise the import licence bit to the export licensing authorities abroad, but so what!

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Originally Posted by desperatedan

Roy,

I put in a covering letter with my variation application explaining that it was for a ".22 conversion kit comprising a barrel and bolt" for an existing full bore rifle and it was granted on my FAC simply described as ".22 barrel and bolt" - no need to specify which rifle it's a conversion kit for.

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I find my force area very helpful indeed, so first off, phone them up and ask about it, (some do apparently take issue with conversion kits), then as Dan says, write a covering letter to go with your variation.

In my letter I outlined that I have an interest in shooting and studying service rifles, with a particular interest in the L1A1 and its variants, with this in mind I would like to acquire a .22 conversion kit to shoot with my L1A1's etc etc.

Mine is listed as .22 conversion kit on my FAC and the spare liner is simply listed as ".22lr barrel"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by desperatedan

I'll second Peter's advice. I personally imported an original kit from North America last year (as allowed with a suitable variation on your firearms certificate). No need to go to UK Border Agency Coventry hub to collect either as after paying the customs fees online, Royal Mail even delivered it to my door.

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Any issues with your liner fitting Dan?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Once the sub-cal kit - or firearm, which it effectively is - is entered on your UK firearms certificate, that is your import licence, and authority to possess in the UK. It is also the basis on which the US (or other) exporter can apply for his export licence if required. Done it loads of times including the re-import of my single shot SA80 from Canada in the late 80's

In some cases you might need a covering letter from the Board of Trade just to emphasise the import licence bit to the export licensing authorities abroad, but so what!

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Along with a copy of my FAC I sent the vendor a copy of the Notice to Importers 2871 from the Department for Innovation, Business & Skills ( I preferred the old "Board of Trade" name as Peter mentioned) which is a download on the UK Gov website. This notice covers the current requirements for import and has a section on personal imports. On the strength of those docs the seller was then able to get a Canadian export licence turned around in 24 hours.

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Any issues with your liner fitting Dan?

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John,
No issues. I have a straight pull Imbel FAL and the liner dropped straight in. I believe that, by definition, with new/replacement barrels UK straight pull L1A1s could well have slight differences in bore/rifling diameters which could affect liner fitting, especially where following the original kit specs.

Does your new liner fit both (?) your SP L1A1s?

Kev

Better still, as the legal owner of a sub calibre kit, when you do eventually give up FULL bore shooting, you can retain your L1A1 too. Because by default, it is the medium by which you shoot SMALL bore! Good 'eh!

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Originally Posted by desperatedan

John,
No issues. I have a straight pull Imbel FAL and the liner dropped straight in. I believe that, by definition, with new/replacement barrels UK straight pull L1A1s could well have slight differences in bore/rifling diameters which could affect liner fitting, especially where following the original kit specs.

Does your new liner fit both (?) your SP L1A1s?

Kev

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Morning Kev, I have adjusted the liner to fit my Enfield L1A1, it won't even get past the chamber of the Lithgow, to be fair, that rifles only had about 100 rds through it though) it was check fitted and proofed in an Imbel, just slid in.

As Peter has pointed out before, the utter pointlessness of proofing a blow back .22 bolt group and a liner that's held within a barrel ... about as much use as a chocolate tea pot!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Better still, as the legal owner of a sub calibre kit, when you do eventually give up FULL bore shooting, you can retain your L1A1 too. Because by default, it is the medium by which you shoot SMALL bore! Good 'eh!

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That thought did occur to me to Peter, I also have an FAC "place holder" on my cert, a Brocock revolver, this was added back in 2004 when the option was to hand them in for scrapping or put them on your FAC.

The beauty of this little revolver is that there is no requirement to be a member of a club to keep it, so if I ever want to divest myself of all my firearms I can, but keep the Brocock and my FAC open indefinitely!

John, Kev,

If we ever meet up would you mind me taking a few dimensions of your kits ?

No problem Geoff, always happy to help.:beerchug:

Ditto.

Thanks Guys, Much appreciated, would of got back earlier but been shooting all weekend......

I finally got mine tot he range the other day. Smooth as silk.

Installed on a hodge podge of parts, Imbel lower, Argie barrel and a Williams Alumi-bomb upper receiver.

I should have gotten several more magazines then I did.

Sorry, Cutler Bay is in Florida, USA. Noticed most of you guys are in England.

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Afternoon all,

Having given up waiting for the bloody weather to turn and itching to shoot my .22 kit, I re-joined my local small-bore club and headed to their 25yd indoor range. Well, Rays kit worked without any issues, putting all the rounds in the black, time after time, no feed/extraction or FTF issues what so ever, despite the converted magazines being the Fal small lug type (pic below with an original L12A1 magazine for comparison).

As we all know, .22 semi autos are finicky beasts at the best of times, but very pleased indeed with this first shoot, the action time is lightening fast and slick ... so fast that I thought the first round had failed to fire, then I spied the hole in the black and the empty case!

I really wasn't expecting it to be very accurate, I hear some of the original kits couldn't hit a barn door, (probably more to do with worn bores and loose liners) this set up puts the rounds on target with impressive accuracy and consistency, I will only use this kit with my Enfield L1A1(as I adjusted the new liner to snugly fit this bore) and keep the Lithgow L1A1 for dedicated full bore shooting.

Obviously, I have only tried it at 25 yds so far, but initial test results are very encouraging indeed, the only real issue is the SUIT post obscuring the target!

I tested subsonic and Hi velocity stuff, it ate everything without complaint and didn't miss a beat, my previous .22lr rifle was a Spikes tactical ST22, though a fine carbine, it wasn't as accurate or reliable as the L1A1 / conversion kit combo, it only worked with Hi velocity ammo and only then CCI Mini Mag, anything else and reliability suffered. The conversion kit on the other hand, like a Russian tractor, seems to run on anything without complaint!

My "Shooter. Usually. In. Trouble" (spare L2A2) has finally found useful employment, it suffered from wondering zero in full bore, but .22's zero recoil is no issue, zeroed in seconds and stayed on target. I managed to get together some L12A1 spares for the bolt group, including an unused in the wrap rear bracket, I have to think about keeping it serviceable into the future, so I will grab any small parts I can get my hands on.

In summery its been quite mission making this .22 conversion kit happen (its the only example of Rays work this side of the Atlantic and it will probably be the only one too unfortunately), I am happy as a pig in the proverbial!

Pictures of the rifle and kit below, the shorter polished "new" liner is the example I have adapted for use with this rifle, the other is an original spare ... just in case!

Pleasing to see good reviews of these re-manufactured sub cal kits. He worked long and diligently to get them right and back engineering is no easy feat.

You can easily convert your FN sub cal mags to UK spec sub cal mags by shifting the guts accurately from one to the other. I don't remember anything really failing in the kits. Just the odd distorted extractor and ejector that's all. Plus bulged barrels of course!!

Have fun..........

Evening Peter, I know you assisted in the early stages of this project, it might not have even got of the ground without it in fact, so a big thank you to you.

I was thinking of rehousing the magazine guts in inch pattern shells, but after a bit of slight adjustment, these Fal mags work just fine now, after all, if it ain't broken why fix it!

Its been a labour of love for Ray, I think at times he wished he never started the project, but as you say, he stuck with the laborious prototyping stage and has made a superb kit. Well done Ray, I take my hat off to you! Nothing like an L1A1 to make .22 plinking fun again!

Had a bit to do with the original H&K units designed for the G-1 and used here in Oz L1A1s, back in the "good old days".

Standard warning was that they were NOT to be used with "high-velocity" ammo as there was a risk that the extra pressure would, after extended use, distort the .22RF barrel with its incredibly thin wall, and "mould" it, PERMANENTLY into the 7.62mm rifling.

Never saw it happen and only ever saw wax-lubed, plain lead, standard velocity ammo used during range practices.

We had what was called the "Cine (Cinema) Range" for these devices.

This was a long, (.22-resistant) room with a huge sheet of paper that was scrolled horizontally across the target area. Onto this paper was projected, (via good old 16mm FILM), various target "scenarios"; hence "Cine" range

The projector was synchronized (hopefully) with the paper drive mechanism and you could thus review and score your performance.

Got to use it ONCE, just before it was "closed down".

All done with video and lasers these days. (No live ammo was harmed in this training, SAH!).

Unlike the days of the old Cine Range, no cleaning is required after a day of "Laser Tag" either.

Now that sounds like fun Bruce, its out with the old 16mm projector and .22lr proof the garage at the weekend (if my FEO is viewing this, I am joking)!

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Now that sounds like fun Bruce, its out with the old 16mm projector and .22lr proof the garage at the weekend (if my FEO is viewing this, I am joking)!

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Yeah, 'Cos what your REALLY gonna do. Is shoot it out in your Bedroom if your Honest!.................LOL ;)

You got me Mike, but I will put a red flag up on the landing and stick to low fat .22lr as a concession to "range safety" !

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

You got me Mike, but I will put a red flag up on the landing and stick to low fat .22lr as a concession to "range safety" !

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NOT forgetting Body Armour & a Helmet!....;)

ive been enjoying mine a lot , it shoots great and ive run it without cleaning so far to see how dependable it is - no issues at all ,

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...z3f4ojk2-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lp8ckpjs-1.jpg

Those new-made kits have been getting great reviews. A credit to him and all his hard work.

I went into a store a few years ago looking for something else - or just being nosey, depending on your point of view....., and found a wooden box that contained - and I'm not kidding here - about 200 of those retainers, the end sections that holds the rear end of the return spring and return spring rod plus zillions of the little circlips that retain the rid in place. It's not that they ever go wrong!

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Originally Posted by A square 10

ive been enjoying mine a lot , it shoots great and ive run it without cleaning so far to see how dependable it is - no issues at all ,

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...z3f4ojk2-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lp8ckpjs-1.jpg

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Rays kits really are great, I too am astonished at how reliable they are!

HK got the base design right in the first place and Ray obviously made a very close copy capturing the designs inherent reliability.

---------- Post added at 12:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Those new-made kits have been getting great reviews. A credit to him and all his hard work.

I went into a store a few years ago looking for something else - or just being nosey, depending on your point of view....., and found a wooden box that contained - and I'm not kidding here - about 200 of those retainers, the end sections that holds the rear end of the return spring and return spring rod plus zillions of the little circlips that retain the rid in place. It's not that they ever go wrong!

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Just an idea Peter, I don't suppose any of those neglected dusty and forlorn L12A1 spare parts could be rehoused to a loving home ... like mine for instance?

Took the kit out again yesterday and shot it out to 100 yds, 60rds, again very impressive accuracy and again, performed without fault.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Took the kit out again yesterday and shot it out to 100 yds, 60rds, again very impressive accuracy and again, performed without fault.

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Source an FN Sniper Scope top cover base. & Good Japanese Scope. & you have a good Bunny Rifle. Whilst waiting in good cover around 4-5pm in the afternoons. You could easily take out 'the Whole Family'.
Of Bunnies, as Pest control!.....;)

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Took the kit out again yesterday and shot it out to 100 yds, 60rds, again very impressive accuracy and again, performed without fault.

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I'm curious as to what you call very impressive accuracy, I wouldn't expect Anschutz type performance, but just what kind of grouping did you get and with which ammo?

three inch groups at 100yds, in choppy conditions from my shooting bench, so buffeted about a bit, (probably do better) with CCI Mini Mags.

As yo say, certainly not Anschutz accuracy, but very respectable from a semi auto conversion kit!

Plenty good enough for a plinker..

Just be sure that you use top quality ammo because if the barrel bulges, it's there for life and the rifle remains a .22" forever! Well, certainly in its Army life it did!

At a few of the units under my care they were fed-up changing the sights to suit the .22" inserts and back again when the kits were taken out and back again and so forth. Sadly, but sadly-on-purpose, over the space of a week or so, the first 6 rifles in the Armory had the .22" sub cal barrels bulged into place meaning that thereafter, they were permanently dedicated sub-calibre rifles. Red band around the handguards with .22" painted on and end of problem. But, alas, not the end of the story. Got loads of use for many years especially by the local ACF's and CCF's. When the L1A1's were withdrawn for L85's, these dedicated sub-cals were recorded differently by dint of specialist Army accounting methods. So for 5+ years these rifles were still being used quite happily until the new H&K sub-cal kits for the L85 came on stream. I think that a couple of the school CCF's used them after that......... But that's another story.

Use best quality ammo is my advice

Hi Peter,

No problems so far, I wonder if this bulging issue was more of a problem on slack fitting liner/bore combinations, I could see how excess tolerance along with firing pressure, might "give" enough to bulge, engage with the rifling and stick tight!

How much of this issue in service was caused by worn weakened liners and bores, or by squaddies forcing them into dirty bores, or indeed a combination of these issues? I adjusted my new liner to very snugly fit in the bore, (dangerous laymen's common sense here) I would have thought being snugly contained and as a result, well supported in the bore, would help prevent the liner from bulging ... or have I completely misread the forces involved ... VERY POSSIBLE ??

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

three inch groups at 100yds, in choppy conditions from my shooting bench, so buffeted about a bit, (probably do better) with CCI Mini Mags.

As yo say, certainly not Anschutz accuracy, but very respectable from a semi auto conversion kit!

Plenty good enough for a plinker..

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Sounds very good. I found that el cheapo ammo (CCI) was good enough at 25 mtrs and even 50 mtrs. At 100 mtrs match ammo performed best. Without digging into my records I can't say which brand it was, but it produced groups of around 3" +.

Late addition, thanks to mrclark303 for the reply. As I don't know anyone else with an L12A1 I couldn't compare notes on accuracy, but now I'm a bit wiser. I was seriously thinking of aquiring another barrel, preferably brand new, however the one UK source is now in prison and no other supply line in sight.
I can definitely agree with Peters comment about quality ammo, not so much for 25 mtrs, but it does make a difference at 100 mtrs.

Yep, forces involved! You CAN remove the .22" barrel but it means the destruction of the .22" liner - even if you unbreech the outer barrel. Hey-ho...., all is not lost though because you still have a great .22" plinker and easily obtainable (now....) spare .22" barrels. The answer is to only shoot the best quality ammo

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Yep, forces involved! You CAN remove the .22" barrel but it means the destruction of the .22" liner - even if you unbreech the outer barrel. Hey-ho...., all is not lost though because you still have a great .22" plinker and easily obtainable (now....) spare .22" barrels. The answer is to only shoot the best quality ammo

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Can you please tell me where I can get a spare .22 barrel?

They are being re-manufactured in the US - as are the complete kits. Maybe one of the owners of the kits could answer specifically where they come from

You'd have thought that someone would pass on the new manufacturers name by now.......

Try Brian at BDL Ltd in SC. He was also semi-instrumental in the new manufacture of the kits

PM's exchanged and (hopefully useful) information sent Peter..

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

PM's exchanged and (hopefully useful) information sent Peter..

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Very useful. Thanks.

I have user handbooks for the SLR and conversion kits available too.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

You'd have thought that someone would pass on the new manufacturers name by now.......

Try Brian at BDL Ltd in SC. He was also semi-instrumental in the new manufacture of the kits

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Peter,

The kits were made by Thrustline Manufacturing in Ogden, Utah, USA.

Hi Kurbelgehause,

I didn't know you we're a member on Milsurps too.

If you aren't sick and tired of people pestering you, any chance of a new production run?

Hello Mr. Clark,

Yes, been a member for a while but almost never post here, this would be my third post, ever.

I am working on making a new run of conversion kits. There have been some changes I had to adapt to so I am looking to get back on track to produce these beasties.

I think I have the only example of your excellent engineering here in the UK and I still enjoy shooting it very much.

Runs like clockwork and accurate to boot.
My review is buried way back at the start of this thread

It would be great to have some more of your superb kits available for others to enjoy too.

Shouldn't that be, "A midges wully"?

Quick question, I've got one of the H&K 22 cal conversion kits, do the magazines for this conversion unit work with the H&K? And if they do, are they available for purchase and the price. Thanks in advance

Simple answer is yes regarding function.

You will need to contact Kurbelgehause via pm to check on availability.

Another question, you referred to contacting Kurbelgehause in the PM, is this the time of day and do you have an email address for him? Thanks in advance.

Pm 'private message'

Follow the below link and pm him, he can answer your questions about current availability etc

https://www.milsurps.com/member.php?u=20244

Mr. Kurbelgehause,

I currently have one of the H&K 22 cal conversion units for my FN/FAL and my understanding is you have available spare magazines that will work with this unit. I would be very interested in acquiring a few of these. Can you please quote their cost and availability.

Best Regards,
Guy Hassen

Hi, are these conversion kits still available, if so what are the costs and are they available to be exported to France? Many thanks.
I own a 1961 inch pattern L1a1

I don't know about the US kits, but there will be a another option coming soon.

News to follow....

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I don't know about the US kits, but there will be a another option coming soon.

News to follow....

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hi, this sounds great, please keep me in touch with developments I am very interested.