first find Springfield Trapdoor

I happened to be out of town on a work trip all last week. I was supposed to be home yesterday but it has been extended through next week. Wandering around town, I came across a Springfield Trapdoor (2 actually) at a Cabelas gun library. I have been wanting one for a while, but have never seen one that wouldn't be a wall hanger - in the few dozen I have seen in person, with just an eyeball inspection the bores look very rough from corrosion and years of neglect with built up fouling. Even if the rifling can be seen, looking under the trap shows a chamber heavily pitted from years of wall hanging or neglect. I want something I can shoot and enjoy maintaining, and so have been very patient for many years.

These 2 rifles are a bit different. On the first, the metal looks great - not a hint of any pitting anywhere, even under the trap. The door has retained some of its colorful case hardening (beautiful varying gray swirls at this point). With trap open, and holding up to a light staring down the bore, the color is of course deeper of course than a new rifle, but is clean and shiny all the way down, with none of the usual cloudiness from frosted corrosion or built up fouling. The rifling is clear and sharp, but appears the grooves are not very deep? The lands do look to peter out smoothly and evenly at the muzzle, showing its age. But not a hint of any pitting or frosting anywhere. The stock seems serviceable - shows it's age, and has a rack number painted on the side of the butt.
The second rifle has a stock in much better condition. Metal exterior is of similar quality as the first. The bore has some frosting, evenly down the whole length, that can be seen with just an eye, and some discoloration in the chamber under the trap, whereas the first rifle was perfect. This one is $100 cheaper than the first one. The prices seem a bit steep - but for me would be worth it for a rifle in what appears to be a very good example of serviceable condition - good enough to be issued out today were it needed. I'm leaning towards getting the first rifle I described.

I'm headed back to buy a flashlight and get a closer look, and hopefully some pictures. My concern is that as clean as the bore appears, it could be shot out. I've never seen a "clean" bore on a trapdoor, so I have no comparison has to how deep the grooves should actually be.

here are some pics of the first rifle. Not as excited about it after taking a closer look.
Attachment 115939Attachment 115940Attachment 115941Attachment 115942Attachment 115943Attachment 115944

here is the other one, with the nicer bore.
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I’m a sucker for rack numbers! That’s tempting by itself.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

I’m a sucker for rack numbers! That’s tempting by itself.

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I usually take them off, especially when they seem too "fresh". Like these. Looks like it came from a vfw closet...painted extra big and bold, and renewed every year, so the old guy could tell them apart (no offense intended:)) Price seems high, but I get a veteran's discount, free shipping back to my Cabela's in Virginia and so no ffl fees.
given how long I've been patient, and the very poor ones I've seen go for only a couple hundred less, I think I'm not likely to find a better one. Need to do some parts reading. if the important parts are correct my wallet won't ache as much when I get it (oops...IF I get it.)
EDIT: stock is marked 1882, which at least matches the serial according to http://gun-data.com/springfield_trapdoors.html

I liked the first bore better but hard to tell without a bright white cloth at the back and a light on it. They both had detractions though...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

They both had detractions though

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Do elaborate. I have a couple days to decide.
The bore pictures are tough to convey what I saw with my eye. The first one the rifling seems to show up better because it is "cruddy" and reflects less light. The second is bright and shiny, and well defined.
The crown on the first is pretty rough..plenty of small dings and pits. The second with the shiny bore is nice clean and smooth. From what I read and saw on https://www.trapdoorcollector.com, the sights are correct for an 1882.

I can't see if they have all the parts? Are they missing the firing pins? Can't be both missing them? Second one has a nice cartouche but dings in the wood there. First one has no dings. First one has a nice bore from what I can see but the second has that nice case hardening. It's back and forth. I'd like to be there to see them both because as you say, lighting in the pics. If the second one has a clean bright bore...I'd take it. A shiny bore in an old BP rifle is almost impossible to find. I like a good bore. It has the cartouche too...dings could maybe steam up.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Second one has a nice cartouche but dings in the wood there

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the first stock has been sanded and refinished - the circle P under the wrist is barely visible. The second one is nice and proud. The stock is dirty, but would clean up real nice. The fit around the lock plate is also better on the second.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Can't be both missing them?

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I think they are both there. Will go back today and triple check.

The second rifle shows someone beat on the front sight. I need to go back and look closer to see if it's a pinned blade, or the earlier solid type. I think I read that by 1880ish they had switched to pinned blades? hopefully someone can confirm.

I did some price searching...on gunbroker they seem to be $1500-$2000, but no one is bidding! Those with bids and ending soonest are at $700-900, but clearly not in as good a shape...lots of evidence of surface rust, cartouche on lock plate not very visible, and likely a bore that looks as bad as the crown. 2021 listing and sales on trapdoorcollectors look to be going at $800-$1200, but I didn't see one with with metal finish in as good a shape as the second one above. I don't have my NRA value book with me whilst traveling, but I think I remember NRA "very good" to be $1200-$2000 for an 1873 model, and starting at triple that for a Custer era.

---------- Post added at 01:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------

...they also have a Winchester M1 carbine they want top dollar for. I want an M1 carbine eventually, but I'm not nearly well informed enough on all the complexity of variations to buy one yet.

closer look...firing pins are indeed there. front sight is the later type with removable blade, and the bore really is that nice. A bit of etching on the top of the door. I'm only concerned that the reason the bore is so nice is that maybe it was lapped to death? suppose I won't know until I slug it.

Don't know about the idea that someone lapped it. I've not seen that so far on anything.

From years of experience I earnestly advise you to go for the best bore. Just about everything else is fixable. But try as I may, I have never been able to put back rifling that is no longer there!

..then I'm probably just trying to talk myself out of it.

well, it's done. The rifle with the bright and shiny bore should be waiting for me in Virginia by the time I return from my work trip. Ended up being stuck in Alabama for another week, giving me the chance to take my time so the Mrs. doesn't accuse me of impulse buying another rifle:).
I'm excited to get it disassembled, take more pics, and get the bore cam in it. Midway was the only place that had 45-70 brass in stock. a case of 100 is on it's way. I'll wait to order lead bullets until I slug the bore.

Looking forward...I cast bullets and loaded for 45-70 for years when I lived out in the prairies. I had a #3 ruger, '86 Winchester and a '95 Marlin all in 45-70. I shot 405 lead mostly and two round balls for fun. I used 300 or 340/350 gr jackets for hunting when I could. Lots of shooting that one.

Finally have it in the shop. Will take some better pics as I tear down clean and inspect.
right now the kids and I are having a blast flipping out empty brass and practicing catching it.

easy peasy. Most all came apart with GREAT care. If anyone finds this...read the instructions on trapdoor collector here
https://www.trapdoorcollector.com/Disassembly.html
very carefully. pay special attention to the warnings about chipping the edges of the original fitting. these things were fit together lovingly, with great care, and very tightly. Thankfully I read first, and took my time, and no splintering.

There is some rust behind some of the parts. The only think that I'm stuck on is getting the tumbler off the hammer. I have it soaking and will try again tomorrow. I haven't taken the rear sight off either, but given how the underside of the rest looks, I probably should.

rear sight came off pretty easy. those headless screws had me worried. I used a small tap wrench, whose collet was just the right size to fit over the head. the screw for the collet of course doesn't fit between the ears, so I clamped the collet with vice grips...very tightly...then held all steady and gently turned...gently...keeping my eye on it for the slightest hint of slippage. Both screws came loose this way with no slipping. However, when I pulled the collet off it did scuff the bluing on the head - but both screws already had some scuffs - likely from when they were originally installed.
As I thought, there was a thin oily orange sludge under the base and evidence of surface rust. Not too bad though. will buff right out.
The screws on the ladder bar were buggered in the original photos I took. I ordered new ones.
If the tumbler doesn't come out of the hammer tomorrow after soaking, I will settle for flushing all with kroil. The pawls on the tumbler have a good amount of rust, which is why I want to take it off. I suppose I can try to do my best with fine brass wheel on a dremmel to clean it up.

The hammer/tumbler separated this morning with a couple love taps and the lockplate supported between two hockey pucks. Kroil never ceases to amaze me!.
I took some pictures as I disassembled, and before kroil got everything - to think many places hadn't seen the light of day since 1882!
Attachment 116257Attachment 116258
The lock plate inletting was clean and sharp, with no splintering or chips from past removal. I was very careful to keep it this way! There is heavy rust on the tumbler pawls, and the underside of the sear spring, among other places visible.
The finish on the underside looks like a char...maybe burnt oil from quenching? If so, I will be careful to remove as little as possible whilst getting rid of the rust.
Inletting still clean and sharp. Sorry my shop lights are very bright...that's not splintering at the bottom.
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Note to others...of course the old timey rule of using good and tight fitting screwdrivers applies...but also be sure to take a pick and scrape the gunk out of the slot first. It doesn't matter how well fitting your screwdriver is..if it doesn't bottom out in the slot you will be sure to bugger it. This buttplate screw had 140 years of dried mud and oil packed into the slot.
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In addition to the usual dings, when I took out the cleaning rod, there was a small chip of wood missing in the groove. The cleaning rod keeper fits into 2 wells - the front with the front band spring passing through it, and one hidden in the rear. The wood is very very thin where the cleaning rod groove passes the second well. I dunno if me pulling the cleaning rod out caused it, or if it happened long before me. The wood is so thin there it likely happened long ago.
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The sight ladder slide screws were very buggered already. I have new ones on the way. These were really hard to turn out. I had to remove the ladder, place on a rubber mat, and press realllllly hard to keep from slipping. More on the sight later...I have lots of questions.
Attachment 116265
Remove the trigger was especially delicate work. Follow the trapdoorcollectors.com advise. Use the tang screw, gently tappety tappety while watching for splinters. I had a couple of shards begin to lift. A fingernail was enough to keep them down while I tapped it all out. A little diluted wood glue should keep them separating further.

There was indeed some light surface rust under the sight base. I'm glad I was brave enough to remove it. I don't see a need to attempt removing the tang plug, or pulling the barrel. The former is nice and clean, with no crud built up in the edges where the surfaces mate.

Now the stock has no metal on it. I'm going to wait and decide how much I want to work on it. There are rack numbers on the opposite side, but there were clearly rack numbers on the other side too that were removed.
Attachment 116266
For anyone that saw my Krag cleanup...I think I've gotten pretty good at evening out the finish and preserving the patina by removing decades of cigarette suet from that Krag that had hung in a VFW for decades. If I want to clean this one up, it will involve removing the rack numbers on the other side. I haven't decided yet.

I'm soaking all the parts in kroil now to loosen the rusty bits, and will slug the barrel, and take some borecam pics for you all tonight.

I decided to take the tang off - from what little I could get my rigid camera into the chamber, there is some surface rust on the top, and the rest is a bit grimy. I didn't see a 45-70 ratcheting chamber brush anywhere, so how hard can it be to screw off the tang?
The taper on the tang is a real b&*$%. It just so happens that my channel locks, properly adjusted and shimmed with lead sheet, fit the taper pretty well. I secured the action tightly in my vise with hard rubber pads, but I detected some slippage. It seams the easiest place to support the action would be up front at the chamber end, but I was worried that if the tang was frozen on, I could twist the receiver. After about 20 different setup attempts trying to support the whole length of the receiver, I used lead shims on my 1/2" wide jaws, clamped perpendicular to the receiver on the flats closest to the tang instead of trying to support the whole length. Came right off with some initial pulsating pushes.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

Came right off with some initial pulsating pushes.

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A couple of slips might have been enough to discourage me, worried about damage. Glad it finally gave in...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

A couple of slips might have been enough to discourage me

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believe me I was discouraged. at each fail I gave up, and came back an hour later. The "slips" were not drastic. I went very slow and as soon as I saw the receiver start to turn on the rubber pads, I stopped. It really just needed a firm hard hold. Hardwood or aluminum vice pads would have worked....or some pieces of lead sheet I had.

slugging the bore will have to wait until I get some more lead balls. In the mean time...
here are some pics of the bore....as I found it. It hasn't been touched by me yet.

Crown, halfway in, throat where chamber meets the lands, and the chamber wall.
Attachment 116311Attachment 116312Attachment 116313Attachment 116314

This one was pretty lovingly maintained. I didn't see any cleaning rod damage at the crown, although a few Knicks and dings on the outside. I inserted a .452 jacketed bullet and saw little to no muzzle erosion.
I busted the little bit of rust off of the internals, cleaned re oiled and greased and put the assemblies back together. The lock was pretty simple and fun. There was some grit in its feel before, but it's like butter now. I still need to decide what to do with the stock. I'm leaning towards lifting out out the sweat and grime with Murphy's oil, then evening out the color with laquer thinner or acetone. This will, of course, remove the rack numbers too.

So I slugged the bore today. I used a .462 slug, half an inch long from the muzzle. With plenty of grease, it required a brass rod and plenty of love taps to push it until about 14 inches in. then it was able to be pushed by hand until the last 2 inches of the barrel, when it again required some love.
On inspection with a micrometer, the slug measured 0.455 across, from land on one side to groove on the other. Carefully placing my micrometer on the "edges" of the imprinted grooves gives 0.460.

I just finished reading Spencer and Pat Wolf's book. I'm very happy they wrote it, and Pat is nice enough to hand sign every book she sends out. I'm not set up to cast on my own, but that will change at some point. I plan to shoot smokeless powder primarily, since I mostly shoot indoors during the week. Although, one of Mr. Wolf's "gallery" loads with lead ball and black powder he reports gives no smoke and no oder, so I wonder if the indoor range would even know I was shooting black powder - but I'm a strict rule follower at the range, and their rule says no black powder.

Any ideas on methods for the slottless 1879 sight screws? Mine came off easy enough using the method I described above without being buggered by pliers, but they aren't perfect. Another thread ended with going to try opening up a pin vise, but never reported back. After I clean up my screws, I was thinking of putting rubber gasket material over the screw and inside a regular 1/4 hex screwdriver, pressing down provide enough friction. The screws seem to be about 0.21. I am also considering using the neck of a 223 case as a shim so that I can get pliers on it to tighten without damaging. Both Wolf's book and trapdoor collector.com mention the need to make one's own tool, but do not provide any suggestions or examples.

Got the stock cleaned up. Rack numbers came off, but I was able to even out the patina on the other side of the butt from where whatever was there originally had been removed. Raw linseed oil is drying (curing?) while I deal with the furniture.

When I cleaned off all the old grunge off the cleaning rod keeper, I noticed some righting on the rear underside. Since this part is near impossible to take out without damaging the stock, and likely never seen the light of day since 1882. I thought you all might like to see what what it said...
Attachment 116375

EDIT: Well, I just wasted a half hour trying to locate the patent. The month and day is clearly Aug. 6. The last day of the year isn't struck so well. It looks like a 0 to me. Bonus points for anyone who finds the patent!

Found it!!!! It was Aug. 16, 1870, Samuel Porter. Patent number US106405
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...6/US106405.pdf

...and from nps.gov,
Attachment 116382
the caption is
"In this fine group portrait from September 1886, notice how each Armory stocker is dressed in his work outfit and holding his tools & gauges, thereby demonstrating his particular role in producing the rifle stock in a "Division of Labor". The man in the black suit in the foreground is Master Mechanic Samuel W. Porter, with his gauges and stamps on the stool for the final inspection stamping of his initials "S.W.P.". The older man seated next to him is Foreman James Stillman who started working at the Armory in 1835 and died in the mid-1890's"

New original extractor came in today. Pricey, but the one on the rifle looks like it was salvaged off the bottom of the ocean. It works fine when heavily greased, feels very gritty if just oiled from all the past corrosion. I went again and got a new one since this was a regular part needing replaced. Will keep the chewed up one as a backup. They won't get any cheaper, nor easier to find.

Lyman 45-70 dies came in today. I found them at their pre-covid panic price at Buffalo arms in Idaho - their shipping was a bit outrageous considering what I got would fit in a a small flat rate box. Something must be wrong with their shipping calculator. Was also able to get some 395gr flat base round nose, 20-1 bullets to make it worth it. After reading Spencer & Pat Wolf's book, I was hoping for 405 hollow base, or 500gr flat base, but did the best I could shy of getting in to casting. I even looked into that...can't find the molds right now except for outrageous prices, and I would likely only cast for this rifle that I likely won't shoot for than a couple times a year. I'll save casting for retirement:)

My copy of Poyer finally came in and I read it yesterday...now I feel silly for going on about discovering the patent above. Thanks for not trolling me for it. I love this place!

Samuel W. Porter became the "Master-Armorer" at Springfield Armory and his 'S.W.P. - cartouche' appears on many trapdoor Springfield rifles and early model 1892 Krag rifles.

Mr. Porter died of Diptheria, on June 18, 1894.

A piece of remembered trivia:
I recall years ago, someone suddenly having accuracy problems with his, previously very accurate, model 1873 Springfield rifle.
He found the culprit to be the 'improved ramrod stop'.
The flat portion had broken and was putting an unusual and variable upward pressure on the Trapdoor's barrel.
This part does not break often. If it does, the "ramrod" will be retained and move fore & aft, pressing part of the broken stop randomly against the barrel.

Thanks for finding and linking Mr. Porter's patent. This device was also used on other Springfield made models and 'trial' arms.

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

the 'improved ramrod stop'.

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do you mean the patented ramrod stop, or the subsequent one? Poyer reports that in 1877(? I think.) they began using a a new ramrod stop with some slight modification so that the 1870 patent no longer applied, and so these later ones were not stamped. I'll have to dig for the details in my evening reading. I had read an account of breakage and pressing against the barrel as you mention...somewhere...probably in one of your posts here:)

I don't rightly know.
I just remember an unlikely part being the source of a model 1873 accuracy problem.
(This thread was the first time I reported the recollection).

FWIW - Personally, I enjoy the 'Poyer Books' that I have, but, take everything with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

FWIW - Personally, I enjoy the 'Poyer Books' that I have, but, take everything with a grain of salt.

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I hear ya. I find them to be a good initial point in the right direction but certainly not definitive. To his credit, they are comprehensive enough to not require flipping through a whole library to find that initial reference to start a search.

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

This thread was the first time I reported the recollection

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Maybe I read it in Spencer Wolf's book, or on trapdoorcollector.com.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

Maybe I read it in Spencer Wolf's book, or on trapdoorcollector.com.

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Late to this party, but: https://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

I think you'll find the referenced description about halfway down:

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Marksman Tip: Check Your Cleaning Rod Stop
Tom Trevor and Don Harpold found the following problem that can cause inaccuracy in your rifle. During the September 1999, outing of the Burbank Muzzle Loaders (primarily black powder cartridge shooters) it was noticed that Tom's .45-70 trapdoor rifle had a broken cleaning rod lock(stop). The cleaning rod stop is located in the forestock and held in place by the front band spring and stock recess. Under normal firing, the barrel is not touched by the stop. However, when the stop is broken as in the photograph, the firing recoil causes the rod to move forward which rotates the forward end of the stop up into the bottom of the barrel binding the barrel between the stop and the barrel band. This has been found to cause a drastic fall off in accuracy in rifles known to be accurate shooting arms.

At the annual September 1999 Springfield shoot, six rifles out of thirty-five had broken stops. It seems the stop would be one of the last things to consider if an accuracy problem develops, but it is something that should be checked. Guns with the broken stop seemed to perform much better after the stop was replaced.

For more infomation on the problem or the Burbank Shooting Club, please contact Tom Trevor at 818-360-9064 or Don Harpold at Dwharpold@aol.com

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Thanks for the reference. I haven't gotten this rifle to the range yet. I was able to find some 20:1 385gr flat bottom bullets. I'll be shooting them at my local indoor range, with gentle 4064 loads from the Lee manual. I understand from Spencer's book that I shouldn't expect stellar results this way, but it will be nice to get it on paper at least, and feel the wood in my hands and trigger on my finger.