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Greetings,
I have just become the proud owner of a Lee-Metford Mk2.
It still has the original cleaning rod, magazine chain, front and rear volley sights and piling swivel.
It joins a mint No4T, a No4 Mk1/3, a 1907 No1 Mk3 and a 1916 No 1 Mk3 in my rifle safe..
I was expecting to see the maker and date of manufacture on the RHS of the wrist, but there is only a serial number.
How can I tell when it was made?
Attachment 117456
More pictures of my newly-acquired Lee metford MK2. AS you can see, serial number and other mysterious stamps are shown, but no date of manufacture?
Attachment 117459Attachment 117458Attachment 117457
Very nice acquisition, sir!
You have a commercial MLM Mk II. I have one similiar, but on the wrist, its marked "LSA" over "II". Mine also has the "for cordite only" notification in the same place too. That number appears to be a registry number for target shooting. I can make out "lithgow" on your barrell, so good possibility it had the wrist markings scrubbed by a target shooter when the barrel was swapped. Speculation on my part, but this is something that shows up with some frequency on this board.
Cant help you with the date. The one in the know about these commercial guns is JC5. He's on here from time to time. You might try PM'ing him.
Again, very nice addition!
More pictures of my newly-acquired Lee metford MK2. AS you can see, serial number and other mysterious stamps are shown, but no date of manufacture?
Attachment 117459Attachment 117458Attachment 117457
smle addict,
You were right on the money. I also asked Ian Skennerton, and this was his response -
As a commercial Lee-Speed (BSA and LSA made them) there was no year or factory stamped on the action body at the butt socket.
Yours is unusual in that the body is usually marked 'LEE-SPEED' in the position where the number 11422 is stamped.
If you say it is an MLM Mk 2, the year would be around 1892 - 1894
Cheers, Ian
And yet am I correct in thinking the butt is military? According to your other thread it has broad arrows and sold-out-of-service stamps. Unless there are two rifles, the butt seems to have come from another rifle.
OK, I'll have a crack at it. Let me join the others in congratulating you on this fine acquisition! An early, commercial Lee-Metford s always desirable and interesting.
To start, we need to see more photos, especially pics of all the markings. Then I think we can sort out the history of this rifle and answer most of your questions. As our friend smle addict pointed out, this is a commercial rifle and it is unusual that the markings on the wrist have been removed. I wonder why? It is also very unusual to see a serial number in this location. Perhaps things will become clear when we see more photos.
What can we tell for sure? I am sure this rifle was made by BSA, because I can make out a Crown over BV mark on the action (indicating proof after 1903). It is genuine, not a fake, though some parts (like the butt) might have been replaced. I don't know what to make of the Lithgow barrel and why it would have the "rust" asterisk/star on the knox... perhaps it is a military replacement. Target shooters (who were frequent buyers of commercial service pattern rifles) would likely have used a Lithgow heavy barrel of SMLE length (depending on when the swap was done).
smle addict is also correct to note the registry number and the target shooting number, but it looks to me that there are 3 numbers on this rifle: two on the right-hand side and one on the left. The one on the left (C060) most likely goes with the Gov't View mark (paid for by the buyer on commercial rifles) that ensured it would qualify for target competition (see my article in the Dec 2020 issue of Arms Heritage for details on that) ... though it is unusual (but not unprecedented) to see it on the left side instead of the right. There is also a sloppily struck number (104...something) on the right, above the 11422. This could indicate some type of government service at some point, perhaps at the same time the buttstock was replaced with a Gov't one (thanks to RobD for pointing that out).
So most likely this rifle was originally purchased sometime between 1904 and 1914 by a target shooter, and later ended up being drafted into wartime service. That is just speculation until we learn more.
Ian is correct to note that the body is usually marked 'LEE-SPEED' in the position where the number 11422 is stamped, but this is only true for the early rifles, when the patents were still in effect. It is not wrong or unusual for this stamp to be absent.
Here's what we need to know:
1) Is there a number on the bolt handle?
2) Are there numbers or markings underneath the wood? This isn't a safe queen, so probably a good idea to remove the fore-end (carefully) to inspect for rust, and cleaning, and see what's under there.
3) Is there anything stamped on the top-rear flat part of the action (where the bolt slides in)?
4) Let's see pics of the nose cap, the volley sight, and the left side of the action.
5) Does the barrel have 5 grooves or 7 grooves?
6) What is the overall length? It looks to be standard length for an MLM, but never hurts to confirm.
Thanks for posting!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jc5
Following up on this. Hoping to learn more.
You can just make out the Lithgow stamp in front of the reinforce then the broad arrow with S in front of that hidden by the top wood I should say there are more stampings under the wood as suggested by the forumer's.
Nice rifle.
I to have a '16 No 1 MKIII Lithgow it still has the mag cut off and is a 5MD (Western Australian Military District) I sourced a matching 1916 5MD '07 Lithgow bayonet, a 5MD 1916 Lithgow scabbard and a Wrights black (Not blanco'ed) 1916 sling, these last 3 items well lets just say cost more than the rifle.
Hi -will post in the next couple of days.. Problem is that I belong to too many forums. Thank you for your help so farQuote:
Originally Posted by Jc5
"LITHGOW" on the barrel?
And it's a Metford?
What else do the markings on the barrel say?
The best I have been able to establish is that Lithgow made Lee ENFIELD barrels as replacements for private and governments users that required them, up until the time that the Australian Rifle Club /Association rules changed in the early 1930's as I recall, so that "range rifles" more or less had to conform to "Service" spec, i.e., 25.2 inches, not with 30.2 inch barrels. There are still a lot of "abbreviated" LE "Range Pattern rifles floating about. Interestingly, they shot surprisingly well, and, in the spirit of "gamesmanship", SMLE shooters wanted a "fatter / stiffer" barrel, just like the profile of the lopped LE barrel. Hence the Lithgow "H" barrel, later to turn up in the "H T" Service sniper rigs. I've seen some odd stuff over the years, but never a Lithgow-made replacement Metford barrel. I'm getting used to surprises after all these years, however.
Unless it is utterly smoothbored / shot out, you should be able to count the rifling grooves: Five for an Enfield, seven "polygonal grooves" for a Metford. Even near-mint Metfords look like they are "shot out" to the untrained eye that is expecting nice, clearly-defined rifling grooves. See also H&K G3 . HK91 barrels.
Hi - it has a 5 groove barrel, and the date stamp shows it was re-barreled with an Enfield pattern barrel in 1921. This, I believe, was a common practice as I'll hazard a guess that there were no new Metford barrels available then !.
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