Ishapore SMLE MKIII* - What's the Prognosis?

Let me preface:

I have had this rifle for about seven years, during which time it has had about 60 rounds of PPU through it.

I have never accuracy tested it, merely shot at steel gongs (24"x24") out to 300yds.

On a whim, I decided to get a borescope and see what it up, since it will be useful for my other milsurps from other countries.

First thing to note: the camera turns everything bluish with the LEDs.

Just with my ole failing MK1 eyeball, the bore looks dark, but I can see what looks like very strong rifling; so I stuck the camera inside and found this.

Right before the crown (you can see the inner crown/bore)
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Going backwards from muzzle to chamber
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I have no idea what the bits sticking above the lands are. I would guess dust or fibers from a bore mop after failing to remove copper?

Chamber
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Throat
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Apologies, the pictures arent great, but they are the limit of my dirt cheap USB borescope.

The rifle is all numbers matching in same font, appears to be Ishapore refit in 40 and again in 41 (left side) Forend is missing numbers, but sight leaf, bolt, barrel (sort of?), nosecap, and action are all matching. THe Magazine is force matched with a straight line through the old serial. Not sure if the rifle started in Ishapore since the left hand side of the receiver is marked 'Enfield Rifle MKIII 3332 U.K. or something similar. Very hard to read.

Anyway, the barrel is part of the refit because on the underside of the chamber there is a different serial stamped in. Is this barrel worth using, or is it scrap? There are NOS MK3 barrels out there for under $200USD so if I can extend the rifle's life, I might hit up BDL and see what he can do.

I'm just not sure how this looks compared to your average FR rifle or if its even worth shooting. And what the heck are those things going across the lands?!


I know I will need to scrub the bore and chamber more, but would greatly appreciate any input folks can provide. Thanks! Yes, I believe that is still some grease in the rails and extractor groove.

How many times did you hit and miss the 24" x 24" steel plate?

I think the bore just needs copper out and a newish bore brush. Lots of elbow grease...I'd love to see the actual shade of the bore though. I'll bet there's nothing wrong. The pic of the crown doesn't show much rifling though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NORTHOF60

How many times did you hit and miss the 24" x 24" steel plate?

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Honestly couldn't tell you. According to my log book I got this one back in 2014 and I believe the range with steel closed in 2016 so that is stretching my memory quite a bit. I think if it were a really low percent I would have remembered it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I think the bore just needs copper out and a newish bore brush. Lots of elbow grease...I'd love to see the actual shade of the bore though. I'll bet there's nothing wrong. The pic of the crown doesn't show much rifling though.

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Yeah the rough 'bullet test' shows it is not 100% gone but maybe 50-70% worn per the EnfieldAccurising youtube channel.
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I need to play with the borescope more to see if I can adjust the white balance at all because I also want to know the coloration. I rolled the dice on an RTI No4 "Original Condition" goat herder's stick from Ethiopia; which might be the better rifle for any rebarrel/parts swap depending on condition since I really like the light patina on the SMLE.
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One funny bit. When the rifle was FR'ed either the first (or second time? that 40 is interesting to me) the pitting on the rear socket was clearly present because RFI put the asterisk above the lettering (just visible below the safety screw).
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Sadly the original markings were scrubbed at time of FR (I think?) like many Ishapore rifles I have seen.
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This mark I am having a difficult time finding more examples of. Right below the import marker on the left side of the receiver. Not sure if it is original to the rifle. I think it says "NO.1MKIII .303B U.K."
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Either way, I'll pick up some copper defouler and new bore brush as well as figure out a good steam pipe (for rust conversion) since there are minor spots of surface corrosion I have been pausing by just oiling them while it sits. I'll work on the white balance and re-scope the bore after copper removal.

It it hits what you're aiming at, I wouldn't worry what it looks like. If the muzzle is the only worn part, counter bore it.

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After cleaning, and adjusting white balance, I believe I have no cause for concern. The bits bridging the lands are just pittinggoing all the way across. Is the bore as pretty as the exterior? No, not really. Cleaning brought back some shine so there is some smooth metal in there.

The white balance is adjusted on my display to show neutral while under the influence of f.lux; meaning my display color balance is severely impacted to have a white point of about 2500K as I type this due to being some hours past sunset.

I DO have a rifle with a rather rotten bore, my Budapest -> Czech -> Steyr M95 Stutzen. For reference, it is below.

I don't think the M95 has a single square mm of smooth, white metal in the bore but it does seem to have a decent amount of rifling all the way to the muzzle. Attachment 116803

White balance is better because i tuned that during mid-day.

Well, now I can focus on the wood of the enfield. I'll find some natural turpentine and RLO for cleaning it up. It still oozes preservative oils when it gets warm and does indeed smell of cosmolene instead of the UK preservative grease. Smells exactly like my Norinco SKS and my Brother's hex Mosin.

I rolled the dice on an ethiopian K98 and No4 Mk1 from RTI. Took screenshots of the webpages, made printed PDFs of the webpages, and paid by credit card so here's hoping I don't get taken for a ride. This morning I augmented my swiss collection by giving the K31s an older sibling. A 1918 G11 from Simpsons. I really like dealing with those folks. This will be my third rifle mfg'ed in 1918 which is also the date of my maternal grandfather's birth, so that's cool (to me). He served in the Pacific as a Sea Bee, the Swede was in the north, the M95 in central Europe. So my 1918 global collection is just missing a South American Mauser and something from Africa built around then. (Musket maybe?) Idk, some of my collection criteria is a bit odd lol.


Thanks again for everybody's input. Once I have everything all clean and get some time off work I'll see how the SMLE shoots on paper (though I am a little scared to learn hahahaha)

Well, the forestock is not looking promising. I see substantial work ahead. I see enough work ahead, that I ordered a set from Prestigious Wood Stocks to use for shooting.

Also, this poor thing needs a really good boiling/steaming as you will see later.

First up, a brief overview. I think it's rather pretty. Nowhere near pristine, it's definitely lived a hard life. Right side of the socket is scrubbed, which seems to be common from Ishapore FR rifles from what reading I can find.
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There is evidence of an armorer's work, though there are no markings on the wood except for an 'M' at the base of the butt, and an 'X' under the forestock.
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Sadly, that armorer was long gone when the wood started to degrade. It looks like maybe... beech? I'm thinking either that or meranti (Phillipines Mahogany)
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The draws are..... gone. There was a thick black goo where they should be and I think it's a mix of grease and pulped wood. The fit was so loose that the forestock just lifted straight off with the rifle in my lap. No tapping, no wiggling, just loose release.
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I'm not sure if my woodworking is good enough to properly save this one. So it will get some RLO and each piece will be individually wrapped for storage until a time when I decide to either have an expert perform accurate arsenal repairs, or just kept with the rifle for posterity. I may elect to do the armorer repairs myself after I get some practice doing the same to my M95; which will happen after I practice doweling and clamping spare timber.

I elected to go with prestigious wood stocks instead of period pieces, because if I ruin those it's not as big of a deal.

Next up... metal.

There is minor pitting.... everywhere. Small amounts of active corrosion which need to be neutralized. Lots of broad arrows.
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It's a boy!
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Bottom of Knox shows a number which does not match the upper stamped barrel serial nor the receiver serial. Faint parking of "__40." not sure if the barrel was put on in 40 or 41 since the socket has both sequences 'after' the FR.
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The bolt was force-matched to the rifle likely at the same time as one of the FRs. Bolt seems to be on the long end of acceptable over-rotation. The extractor is crazy sharp. I will need to dress that gently or replace. Some pitting is evident around the primer region, in-line with the condition of the bore. Bolt lugs remove an even amount of marker when engaged with a case fired in this rifle.

Striker protrusion measures at exactly .0455" but is slightly under-diameter at .067" compared to spec .076". Not sure how vital that is.

I am too cheap to buy headspace gauges for a single rifle, so I made my own. 3d printed the 'base' of a case and rim after measuring and CAD'ing a fired case, leaving slightly undersized holes (1.4mm) around the periphery of the rim. I then cut off bits of TIG welding rod, heated slightly in boiling water, inserted into the holes, then finished by grinding until each one measured .074" from flush with 'front' of 'rim' to 'rear' of 'rim.' The bolt would not close with reasonable force. It's a one-time use tool, but it basically held three steel 'pins' each measuring .074" spaced evenly around the periphery of the chamber face perpendicular to the bolt face so I'm calling it good.

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The trigger has a whooooooole lot of side-to-side play. Examination and experimentation shows to the right side (from the butt) is either overbored or wallowed out. This would make sense from a wear perspective considering that a right-handed shooter is likely to put leftward pressure on the trigger during the pull. It's pretty bad, and you can feel the trigger start to self-adjust and then sort of gently slot into place on the ribs during the first stage of pull. Both sides of the guard are warped front to back across the magwell. I'm not sure what sort of soft jaws will be strong enough to straighten but soft enough to not damage it.
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The mag is all 'lined out' and force matched to the rifle, but it is 'lined out' with.... ones?
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That has to be one of the nicest Indian MKIII's I've seen. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Wipe it down, oil it and enjoy it. It isn't a new rifle and never will be one again.

I'd get onto the split at the back of the forewood that would be a starting point seeing as its an RFI you could look at using a No.4 tie plate as I have seen MKIII's sporting the said plate others may chime about doing that along with repairing the split, also another hairline split going up the forestock near the trigger guard collar front may be nothing but always worth investigating.
PL has stated when making things right ensure you use aircraft grade epoxy when working with the woods.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

That has to be one of the nicest Indian MKIII's I've seen. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Wipe it down, oil it and enjoy it. It isn't a new rifle and never will be one again.

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Thank you. I find it quite pretty myself. I don't wish to make it new so much as make sure there's not any active decay. Not going to refinish it, just want to convert the currently active rust to passivated magnetite. I was kind of surprised to find it blued instead of painted; and not redone with RFI marks instead of GRI post-independence. Makes the rust conversion a lot easier at least!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I'd get onto the split at the back of the forewood that would be a starting point seeing as its an RFI you could look at using a No.4 tie plate as I have seen MKIII's sporting the said plate others may chime about doing that along with repairing the split, also another hairline split going up the forestock near the trigger guard collar front may be nothing but always worth investigating.
PL has stated when making things right ensure you use aircraft grade epoxy when working with the woods.

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The front crack goes about 60% of the way from the bottomwood surface to the front TG collar height. When you pout a straightedge along the crack and follow it back, it points right at the split in back. I'm guessing the poorly fitted (disintegrated) draws are causing the bearing surfaces to be too centralized and are acting as a wedge together during recoil, contributing to the split. I would like to repair it invisibly, so perhaps if I made a 'cave' under the wood surface hollowed out along the outer contours and packed that with epoxy and some sort of stiff filler (carbon strands/tubes?) it would work well. I already have some long carbide burrs from porting motorcycle heads.

As for the rear, I do not want to put a No4 crosspiece since the rifle says 40 and 41 on it. If it said 42 or 43 then I would be all for it, but seeing that next to the dates would bug me. I might be able to de-oil that wood for epoxying and then tie it together with an epoxy coated brass threaded rod of slightly larger diameter. The old wood will be a long way off though, because I got a prestigious stock to use/shoot while i mull over the old wood.

I think it's rather pretty, but I am rather certain the forend will require a veeeeery slight stain to match the rest. Attachment 117125

I haven't built my steam chamber for rust conversion yet. I need to stop being lazy and just do it. All the parts are here. I even have more rusty things to convert (parts from recent K11 acquisition).

I really appreciate the feedback. As I make (slow) progress I'll post results here.

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Originally Posted by deadwood83

The bits bridging the lands are just pittinggoing all the way across.

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Look more like tool-marks caused by the gun drill or the reamer picking up swarf and scoring the bore before rifling. Insufficient coolant / lube pressure out of the cutting head of the drill or reamer will cause this.

Trying to lap this out will excessively enlarge the bore diameter, and you have already noted some muzzle wear.

Just get as much fouling out as you can without removing barrel steel and start again. Stick with FLAT-based bullets of approx 174-180gn.

Hey Bruce, I appreciate your input as well as others.

I grew really weary of the other borescope. It's not really a buy one cry once because the Teslong (proven) is cheap. So I got a Teslong.

True to its name, Proshot Copper Solvent 4 removes.... Copper. Only copper. Literally nothing else. Ther internet wisdom said "it's great, removes all the impurities" Well... not so much. I wanted to believe. I really wanted to believe but well.... the pictures speak for themselves.

The crown is.... not really a crown. It is, however, a really decent arrangement of pits.
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All the big globs of 'stuff' appear to be carbon or lead. Looks like carbon to me, but it seems like carbon would not glop up so much. I DO see shiny metal peeking in spots though. The copper remover appears to have removed copper. I am not holding my breath that the bore is shiny underneath the fouling, but only further cleaning will tell. The lands do look rather sharp though! Not bad for an old thing used hard enough to need an FR one year after its construction.
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Ah, cordite. (throat). I've seen worse, not concerned.
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Bottom of throat. You can see traces of rifling still exist there. It's not much, but it is there.
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Chamber shoulder.
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Chamber neck.
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I recall the bolt was always a little sticky on primary extraction despite locking lugs passing the sharpie test. After seeing the chamber in better fidelity, I now know exactly why. This rifle is a collection piece and a range toy so slightly sticky extraction due to chamber roughness I can live with. I'll still give it a real good cleaning with nylon but I'm not about to try and lap/polish/hone/etc.

I think it would shoot quite well with a slightly aggressive recrown (thinking 30*) and fixed wood/stocking. I have some neway small series cutters but sadly the carbide inserts have end angles which prevent them from working for this application (cannot get them close enough together while maintaining pilot clearance).

I'll have to call PT&G to see if their tools use a live center or a dead center. Really hoping their 30-60* cutter uses a live expanding pilot with at least 2 contact surfaces.

Woodwork is on a brief hold while I am finishing my K11 project. K11 is going smoothy and it only required de-molding the stock and applying original swiss fomula with some rust conversion.

Those pics are a good argument for not buying a borescope! It just worries you but doesn't make the rifle any better.:madsmile:

Seriously, that looks like a case of clean...shoot...clean...shoot and see what it does. I have a couple of bore-scope nightmares (see "Pickelgewehr", for example") that perform quite satisfactorily. One is an original Winchester 94 in 32-40 that a bore-scope expert told me was only fit for a display cabinet. It shoots beautifully. Clean...shoot...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NORTHOF60

How many times did you hit and miss the 24" x 24" steel plate?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

That has to be one of the nicest Indian MKIII's I've seen. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Wipe it down, oil it and enjoy it. It isn't a new rifle and never will be one again.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Those pics are a good argument for not buying a borescope! It just worries you but doesn't make the rifle any better.:madsmile:

Seriously, that looks like a case of clean...shoot...clean...shoot and see what it does. I have a couple of bore-scope nightmares (see "Pickelgewehr", for example") that perform quite satisfactorily. One is an original Winchester 94 in 32-40 that a bore-scope expert told me was only fit for a display cabinet. It shoots beautifully. Clean...shoot...

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There's a whole lotta truth in that statement. I got it out of morbid curiosity, and so I could differentiate fouling from decay. No sense scrubbing the rest of the 'fouling' out if it's actually pitting and you take the rifling with it XD. I got a better look and the 'buildup' is just pitting. THe way the light was reflected by the mirror created the illusion of buildup.

Sometimes they have nice surprises too. I scoped my K11 without swabbing out the automatenfett and was greeted by a bore over 100 years old that booked brand new (orange is the grease and some copper in the grooves)
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I now own a mini lathe that I am slowly getting into shape. trying to fit everything to within a few tenths. After that, I'm going to custom build an expanding mandrel (2 points of concentricity) and a bushing for my 30-degree neway cutter and put a bit of life back in that crown. Dave Manson only offers an 11-degree cutter and there's no way I'm putting a flat target crown on a milsurp. I may also have a 1-hp 8x22" vertical mill en route.