P14 sniper

A recent acquisition, have a look at pictures and would like some feedback on history, original or not, scope information etc...
Bolt does not match. Bought from an estate sale and the missing parts are not available. If you need a picture of a certain part let me know. The front scope base screws are loose and can easily be taken off, the solder has been heated up at some point and not secure.

If someone could send me some pictures of the rear base and correct scope, that would be appreciated, I can resend pictures to the seller to have a look for missing parts at estate sale.

Heck of a find in any condition. I predict you will receiver offers to purchase shortly! ;)

Australian ownership marks.

The rear base and scope etc. are probably long gone, but I would be going through everything that comes out of that estate just to make sure.

Yes I'd get on my bike and help go through the rifle components if there are any there! You never know they may be in a box somewhere.
I know I've squirrelled stuff in boxes and forgotten where the item is!

As mentioned, it is an Australian property marked original P.14 sniper rifle. A few more things to mention:
- the stock has been swapped. It currently features an Eddystone made stock
- the rear sight has been replaced. Originally it should carry a F-sight (fine adjustable)
- quite obviously, the rear base has been removed - and while I did see front bases sometimes turn up, it seems original rear bases are all gone

- just to have it mentioned, yours is a WWI pattern sniper rifle, not one of those from the inter-war Irish contract; those originally featured the square type front base and had BSA made scopes, versus PPCo made scopes on the original WWI rifles
- IMHO it looks as if the rifle is still original finish from WWI and has not been refinished


For picture comparison, just check the local knowledge library. You'll find this rifle there which is as your rifle is and once was looking like: https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...)-Sniper-Rifle)



To end with a comment from my side: quite a good purchase, congratulations to buying it! Despite the fact that it was sportered (seems the Aussies really loved doing this since I've seen quite a few P.14 snipers they heavily modified) you have a rare rifle which can be restored if you are lucky, patient and willing to invest money to it. There are reproduction sets of the mount available from Accumounts, but first I am not sure whether those are working with an original front base, secondly they look really ugly and your rifle surely is worth making an individual rear base.


There was someone on this forum who once did a run of reproduction scope rings for the P.14 rifle (and not even too long ago), but I absolutely fail to find it. Does someone remember?

I would buy a set of the epay accumounts repros and use that to reverse engineer.

British Enfield 303 sniper scope and mount, Enfield No32 sniper scope mount| Accumounts.com

I wonder if Ian Skennerton has blue prints for the mount. It would be worth acquiring it from him and getting a machinist to make them.

Skennerton's book - The British Sniper has some line drawings of the scope and mounts but it is quite difficult to read the sizes shown. I'll see if I can dig something out of my files. In the meantime this is the page from Instructions for Armourers 1931. I believe that your rear sight has been changed but if you look at the rear of the sight in it's upright position there will be a serial number across the rear of the uppermost horizontal - see if it matches your rifle. These can be very accurate rifles and this one is certainly worth saving. Getting hold of a British made Model 1918 scope will be your next problem.

I had a look at the rear sight and it does not match rifle serial number. Was wondering if an AOC (Australian Optical Co.) Pattern 1918 (Aust.) scope be a good fit for this rifle or does it have to be a British Model 1918 scope to make it original. If you can find some drawings with easy to read sizes that would be great, thank you Nigel

Thanks again
Paul

More information on sniper rifles in Australia.

Lithgows first production .303 Sniper Rifle - YouTube

Skwan,

Thank you so much for posting this video. You have inadvertently resolved an issue I have had with one of the items in my collection for years! Being the anal collector I am, when I purchased a Patt. '14/ No.3 Mk. 1* (T) rifle in 2005 I wasn't happy knowing that the bolt didn't match, but correspondence with Ian revealed that when these rifles went to dispersal, the rifles were in one pile, the scopes in another, and some had had their bolts removed. Ian's info mollified me a little, but discovering a sprinkling of parts made by manufacturers other than Winchester, had me convinced that this rifle had received some post-service attention. Thanks to Ian's video on the subject, now I see receiver markings on these Lithgow rifles are exactly the same as those on my example - "2/DD/l\ 247 .191511".

It is very welcome news to learn that Rifle # 247 is not a molested example of one of 2001 sniper rifles made FOR Australia after all, but rather a mostly original, (hopefully), example of one of approximately 300 sniper rifles made BY Australia! I feel much better now.

Thanks again for this revelation, Skwan, and best of luck with your restoration.

Terry

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Originally Posted by Terry Hawker

It is very welcome news to learn that Rifle # 247 is not a molested example of one of 2001 sniper rifles made FOR Australia after all, but rather a mostly original, (hopefully), example of one of approximately 300 sniper rifles made BY Australia! I feel much better now.

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For what I know the total WWI production was 2001. You mention 2001 made for Australia. Do you mean that all of the WWI production was made for Australia, or were there additional 2001 made for Australia?


Also regarding the second part, is there any source to the approximately 300 that were made by Australia? How can these be identified, in which regard are they different from "the others"?

Promo,

Judging from the questions you have asked regarding my last post, apparently you have not viewed the Ian Skennerton video entitled, "Lithgow's first production .303 Sniper Rifle", which Skwan so kindly posted. A quick viewing of Ian's video will show that around 300 Pattern 1914 Mk l* (F) rifles, (the fine-adjustment rear sight model), were converted post-WWl into .303 No. 3 Mk l* (T) rifles for competition and sniper training, as well as their distinctive markings.

No, I had not watched that video. But after watching it I still do not get it why you say 2001 for Australia whereas this was even said in the video to be the overall production?



What Ian doesn't mention in this video, the British WWI sniper rifles had the serial number STAMPED to the rear sight base whereas the Irish ones had the serial number ENGRAVED to the side of the rear sight base. Also the Irish ones had the serial number with W prefix whereas the British WWI ones had the serial number only (he in fact said that wrongly in this video - the proof to that is available in our knowledge base here: No.3 MkI* (T) Rifle (PP Scope) ). Hence it could well had been the Australians "just prefixed" the WWI British sniper rifles with their inventory numbers and adding the ownership stamp from this period - would make sense to put their stamps on the guns, so that in war they clearly can claim what is theirs. Maybe that was also connected with an overaul, IDK. Maybe I missed it, but didn't see any evidence for any other manufacturer being used other than Winchester, just them mentioning that "such rifles turned up".


PS: just at this point, another big telltale for the Irish contract BSA P.14 snipers is the shape of the front base which is much more square when looking at it from the side, especially at the rear end, when comparing it to the WWI bases. Also the Irish rifles all have a dull surface and a blueing which looks dip blued whereas the WWI rifles have a polished surface with blue color blueing.


Edit: stop the YouTube Video at 03:09 and compare the font of the prefix versus the font of the rifle serial. The "2" of the prefix is a different font than the two "2's" of the serial following. I think this would clearly indicate the prefix was stamped at a later point and not at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Promo

But after watching it I still do not get it why you say 2001 for Australia whereas this was even said in the video to be the overall production?

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Promo,
Mea culpa! This faux pas of mine is an embarrassing example of the type of problems one can expect with the advent of age-induced brain-fade and CRS. My mind apparently jumped a cog when I erroneously made that statement, oddly attributing that original production figure to a contract for Australia instead. My apologies for the confusion.

Thankfully, I have a relatively decent reference library which retains those facts my old grey matter can't!

Terry

I was not asking to point out an error, I was curious whether there was something I do not know upon. Thanks for the clarification. Aside of that, looking forward to see your rifle in full glory when you get to restore it. Keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by Promo

Aside of that, looking forward to see your rifle in full glory when you get to restore it.

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Thanks Promo, but I think you may have me confused with Skwan, the original poster.

My example is no longer matching, as per my first post, but it is complete, thanks to a fine-adjustment rear sight from Brian D. and a set of leather scope covers made by Peter L., also courtesy of Brian.

I seen this scope for sale at Lawrance Ordnance that had been sold. Still on the hunt for a scope, will keep you posted when I find one, like some other items I have been after it may come right away or in 15 years.

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Originally Posted by Terry Hawker

Thanks Promo, but I think you may have me confused with Skwan, the original poster.

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Oh indeed .. seems it was now my time to make some confusion :) .


@Skwan, be patient. Some items take long, but it is always worth it. Maybe ask Roger Payne for a set of his reproduction mounts.