No.32 TP Mk. I scopes

I am happy to report that Lyman "Telescope, Sighting No. 32 TP Mk. I " (also written as No. 32 T.P. Mk. I -- these are the designations in the Canadian Army EME Instructions 505 (C.A.) serial number 4407S is now in my collection. This is the Canadian Army customized version of the Lyman Alaskan scope, of which only 350 were purchased in 1944. 2-1/2 power.

On Saturday at the 2-day HACS gun show 2014-11-15 in Burnaby, I asked a fellow who had a lot of scopes on his table if he had any military scopes. He said he had a military issued Lyman Alaskan scope at home which he had never brought out to a show. He thought it had a 4-digit serial number. I anxiously awaited the resumption of the show and he brought it in to the show the next morning. He knew what it was, and we reached an agreement on the price. The optics are very good.

I am in need of the correct black turret screw caps as my scope came with two taller aluminum caps. While I am asking, I might as well ask for the Lyman Alaskan leather lens caps, bracket C Mk. 2 CGB418A,C No. 18 Mk. I scope case and (ideally) matching No. 4 Mk. i* Long Branch 1944 74L#### rifle!

I noticed that my old army photocopy of Canadian Army Local E.M.E. INSTRUCTIONS -- SMALL ARMS AND MACHINE GUNS C 505 (C.A.) had two pages 48 and was missing page 45. WANTED! Copy of page 45. Also I would naturally be interested in original printed (1st generation) EME.

It never rains but it pours. Another C No. 32 TP Mk. I SN 4396S ( no /|\ following the SN) with bracket SN 74L0195 and mounted on a 1955 No. 4 Mk. I* Long Branch/CAL No. 4 Mk. I* rifle was listed and sold the next day on Gun Nutz. The serial number of that rifle 74L0195A matched more or less, with an A suffix (presumably to differentiate it from the original 1944 rifle of the same number.). Normally on Lee-Enfields, an "A" suffix denotes non-standard parts, but in this case as there is no cancelled SN, I suspect that the retired military armourer who reportedly built this rig used an unnumbered 1955 dated Long Branch marked CAL body.

No. 32 TP Mk. I scopes that I have come across reference to in my research so far:

Unknown standard Lyman Alaskan fitted temporarily for trials on 32L4243 in 1943.

4340S estimated by Clive Law as earliest Canadian No. 32 (TP) Mk. I scope

4358S Rifle SN not known to me.

4389S. 74L0122

4392S 74L0318

4396S. 74L0195 Forced match on a 1955 rifle numbered as 74L0195A. Not the original rifle for this scope.

4407S. Rifle SN not known to me. My scope.

4411 Now on a 1943 Savage 55C7424. Not the original rifle for this scope. Bracket has no rifle SN.

4451S. 74L0332

4492S 74L0046

4640S. Rifle SN not known to me.

4690S estimated by Clive Law as last Canadian No. 32 (TP) Mk. I scope

Clive estimated the rifles reserved for these scopes were 74L0001 to 74L0350 (page 46 Without Warning).

The scope contract received approval in March 1944 (p. 44 Without Warning) but interestingly there are at least two C No. 18 Mk. I scope cases dated 1943. (P. 33 Without Warning.)

Even with this small sampling, it appears that the 350 scopes were randomly assigned to the 74L#### rifles set aside at Long Branch as there does not appear to be any correlation between scope and rifle serial numbers.

For those reading up on these scopes, I suggest having a look at Clive Law's WITHOUT WARNING. Pages 33, 39, 43-47, 51 and 53.

Add 4419 on rifle 0022 owned by the UK MoD that came to the UK for trials together with spare telescope 4430. One of these, I forget which, has the standard UK spec/No32 type graticle and crosswire. The trials were not a great success and were stopped.

Canada disposed of a lot of these rifles to the newly re-forming European Armies in 1946.

Why not get 10 sets of the little caps re-made and blacked. Because as sure as god made little green apples, if YOU need a set, then so do plenty of other owners!

Hello Colin,
welcome to the wonderful & frustrating family of the TP.

After some more research you will discover that most of the "matching" TP's are repro bases mounted onto renumbered actions by hopeful (or unscrupulous) owners.

Anyway, back to history: The late Pete Bloom obtained and sold some 45 - 50 TP scopes and Rings (no bases were available as they were destroyed with the receivers) from Holland in the late 1990's. He got the rings and scopes separately so he was not able to tell which scopes were originally matched to which rifles.

The Repro bases were manufactured by a friend of our own Dr. Paine.

to recap:

Of the approx. 35+ TP rifle serials I have collected and the guns and photos I have examined, so far as I'm aware there are 2-3 truly matching rifles extant, @10 "serial number matching rifles" have incorrect receiver features and the majority of correct rifles (5-10?) are mismatched scope/receiver/repro bases.

Then there are the ones where the assembler made no effort to fake a proper serial number onto the action, advertising mismatched "but correct" TP rifles in a variety of Long Branch serial blocks and years, and British No4 and Savage actions....

As far as I can recall Pete (Bloom) told me that he had acquired thirty sets of scopes & rings from Holland, & asked if I could get my machinist, Graham Smith, to make up some accurate copy bases. The intent was to get them as close as we could to the originals but not to attempt to deceive. In fact they were readily discernible as the edges were all just that little bit too new & sharp looking. Also Graham surface ground them to get them accurate dimensionally, & the grinding marks were still visible, albeit fine, through the blueing. Some of the later ones Graham produced I had him engrave the examiner's mark, as I know the originals were stamped. Lee Enfield may be right on the totals, but Peter came up to see me bringing what he had got & stated that he had managed to get thirty sets (which is what I counted). He may have had more & have already disposed of a few, but I don't think so. I did not get mounts made for all thirty sets, & to be honest I can't recall how many I did get made, but 16 rings a bell. I managed to persuade him to relinquish eight scope & ring sets to me in a trade offset against the cost of the bases. I believe others have been selling the bases recently, & I presume these are of more recent manufacture & certainly don't have anything to do with me.

I believe my rifle is correct, though as Lee Enfield suggests is mostly the case, mine is also an 'honest mis-match'; it came from the Charnwood collection, & interestingly the rings are serial numbered to rifle 74L0000, suggesting that assuming the production run did start at 74L it was 74L0000 & NOT 74L0001, as might generally be supposed.

I may have a reproduction but accurate set of rings amongst my tat somewhere. If the OP is interested & would like to drop me a line I'll have a look for them as I don't particularly need them. No bases left though I'm afraid.

ATB

Can we see some pictures? Thank you!

The number of scopes was 30 as Roger describes. Pete Bloom found me the scope that is one serial number off from my original rifle as found in a batch of service rifles imported by Southern Ohio Gun in the late 80's or early 90's. Roger's machinist Graham made me a complete reproduction set consisting of both the base and rings to do the restoration. He reverse engineered an original base and rings as supplied by Roger. I had a couple of original Canadian cheek pieces and that was the only other part missing. The serial number of my rifle is 74L0256. The original scope number as stamped on the wrist is 4518S and the telescope installed as supplied by Pete Bloom is 4517S. It shoots well and I feel very luck to have it as they are scarce on the ground. I guess we could also class this one as an "honest mismatch" The only reproduction parts are the base and rings. They are as Roger describes, a bit sharper on the edges with the examiner's mark engraved rather than stamped. A note of thanks to both Roger and Peter who helped me out with this one. Wow, it's getting to be a long time ago my friends! I never had the pleasure of meeting Pete Bloom in person but had a few interesting chin wags with him at the time and found him to be a great person.

The Holland ( I always thought that it was Belgium for some reason) connection certainly and factually fits in with the supplied to European Armies post war. Their trainee snipers used to bring them to the UK on their courses but they couldn't be incorporated into the standard snipers courses due to the fact that....., well, not to put too fine a point on it, they were crap - certainly compared with what was already in use ON the courses!

I had our rifle re-barrelled at our big workshop and that caused headaches because you couldn't unbreech and breech up unless you removed the mount as I recall. So you couldn't get the 'best-fit/optical alignment' barrel as we usually would. It's easy to tell a faked up rifle as the fakers didn't optically align the centred scope for horizon and vertical before they ploughed on - and on! And when you've got a small dia tube and lenses, optical aberration is never far away

After WWII, Canada planned to align itself with the US military in future conflicts rather than with the British military. The Americans were, after all, right next door. Thus we conducted training with US small arms including the M1 Garand (I like to point out to my American colleagues that Mr. Garand was born in Canada), M1D sniper rifle, BAR, M3A1 "Grease-gun", 1919A4 MMG etc. Canadian Army training manuals for US weapons were printed and although we mainly stayed with the .303 until the 7.62mm changeover in 1957, some US weapons such as the 1919A4 and 3.5" Rocket Launcher were adopted (I fired both in training).

In WWII Canada produced almost a million military vehicles (900,000 plus) most of which had the British style right-hand-drive as we expected, as in WWI, to be fighting shoulder to shoulder with our British comrades. The automotive factories in Canada were however more closely co-ordinated with US auto factories and in Canada our vehicles are left-hand-drive (except for street sweepers and some postal delivery vehicles). Having driven my old RHD 1943 Chevy C15 in Canada, I can certainly see the logic of LHD vehicles for out military! After WWII Canada decided to re-equip mainly with US pattern vehicles built in Canada. The M-Series SMP such as the M38CDN 1/4 ton, M-37 3/4 ton, M-135 2-1/2 ton etc. We also adopted the US 105 mm field gun but adopted the superbly armoured British Centurion with 20-Pounder gun and Ferret Scout Car. A bit of a hodge-podge.

During WWII Canada had the Mutual Aid Program (MAP) and unlike the similar US Lend-Lease, the ownership of vehicles, weapons, radios etc. was transferred with the items. What to do with the surplus WWII stuff remained a question. In the 1950s Canada gave away a Division's worth of equipment each to various countries wanting to rebuild their militaries as part of NATO. I think these went to Holland, Norway, Italy and Belgium. That would have included over 70 Canadian sniper rifles per country. Add to that the fact that most of the Canadian made Long Branch sniper rifles had already gone to the British in WWII and when sold surplus, they seem to have often gone to the USA. Now we collectors are trying to repatriate them. :-)

Thank you all for the informative postings above. Your generous sharing of knowledge is very much appreciated.

I think Roger Payne is right about the start number likely being 74L0000 rather than 74L0001.

---------- Post added at 11:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------

Regarding the two turret caps - I am hoping that these were generic Lyman Alaskan caps and would thus be widely used, and not unique to 350 custom made scopes. Can anyone confirm this? Did they change in appearance over the years?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seaforth72

...snip...

[/COLOR]Regarding the two turret caps - I am hoping that these were generic Lyman Alaskan caps and would thus be widely used, and not unique to 350 custom made scopes. Can anyone confirm this? Did they change in appearance over the years?

---

They are standard Lyman Alaskan caps.

When I found out that we had lost Pete Bloom (who I also never met) I printed off most of my email correspondence with him...now mostly lost in the paperwork jungle....though I still have some of the emails.

Scopes can become damaged or lost in service, so one would reasonably expect a supply of spare scopes and parts. A spare scope # 4430S was sent to the UK along with a test rifle 74L0022 with scope 4419S and scope (re: Peter Laidler above). We have all seen how scopes were so often changed on No. 4 sniper rifles and the normal No. 32 scopes have a great reputation for toughness.

Only 351 Lyman scopes were ordered by Canada ( the 1943 trials one and 350 production models) (pp. 43 & 46 "Without Warning" by C. Law reference to the trials and the contract). Either there was a second contract for some spare scopes or fewer than 350 sniping rigs were assembled so as to leave some spare scopes.

Does anyone have any thoughts or even better, facts regarding these spare No. 32 (TP) Mk. I scopes?

Does anyone know what the "S" at the end of the serial number stood for? e.g. 4407S followed by a /|\ (though some did not have a broad arrow) which was not part of the serial number.

Thank you Peter for the information on the caps being standard Alaskan caps.

I have a spare original scope that I purchased from Pete Bloom at the same time I purchased the one listed in thread #6. You can add it to your list of numbers. It's 4438S with the original ring assembly numbered to rifle 74L0263.

Here are a few pictures of relevant parts of mine. You can see the scope & rifle serials I think. I've no idea what possessed someone to stamp the rifle serial by hand under the neatly engraved (same) number.........but that's how Charnwood got it from Canada & that's how it came to me.

ATB.

Scope number isn't as clear as I'd hoped, but is 4678 S.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seaforth72

Scopes can become damaged or lost in service, so one would reasonably expect a supply of spare scopes and parts. A spare scope # 4430S was sent to the UK along with a test rifle 74L0022 with scope 4419S and scope (re: Peter Laidler above). We have all seen how scopes were so often changed on No. 4 sniper rifles and the normal No. 32 scopes have a great reputation for toughness.

Only 351 Lyman scopes were ordered by Canada ( the 1943 trials one and 350 production models) (pp. 43 & 46 "Without Warning" by C. Law reference to the trials and the contract). Either there was a second contract for some spare scopes or fewer than 350 sniping rigs were assembled so as to leave some spare scopes.

Does anyone have any thoughts or even better, facts regarding these spare No. 32 (TP) Mk. I scopes?

Does anyone know what the "S" at the end of the serial number stood for? e.g. 4407S followed by a /|\ (though some did not have a broad arrow) which was not part of the serial number.

Thank you Peter for the information on the caps being standard Alaskan caps.

---

No, the serial numbers I have collected indicate the full 350 rifles being assembled.

Low of 74L0000
High of 74L0340

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Here are a few pictures of relevant parts of mine. You can see the scope & rifle serials I think. I've no idea what possessed someone to stamp the rifle serial by hand under the neatly engraved (same) number.........but that's how Charnwood got it from Canada & that's how it came to me.

ATB.

Scope number isn't as clear as I'd hoped, but is 4678 S.

---

I wonder if the hand-stamped serial number on your rings is not the original, as the engraved serial is in a "non-standard" (high) position on the plate. Usually the serial is more or less centred in the plate between the locking levers.

Edited to add: maybe not as I reviewed some pics of other TP rings, which seem to be at the same position.

Also, I have noticed that the first 250+ serial numbers are engraved in a larger font than the last few.

I don't know, but I guess what you say is feasible, especially with it bearing the (perhaps???) lowest/first TP rifle number on it. This rifle & scope was in the collection of two well known Ontario based Canadian dealers till Charnwood bought them about twenty years ago, so although mis-matched the combo has been together for a long time. Oddly, although the Charnwood collection contained many tasty items this was the only one I ever purchased.

ATB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seaforth72

Thank you Peter for the information on the caps being standard Alaskan caps.

---

Correction: Thank you to "Lee-Enfield" re: scope caps.

Here is my example, all "correct" as far as I can tell, only bad news is that the scope case got separated and lost....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

No, the serial numbers I have collected indicate the full 350 rifles being assembled.

Low of 74L0000
High of 74L0340

---

"Lee-Enfield" - I think you meant to write High of 74L0350.

Note the positioning of the original rifle serial number on the scope bracket.

From the Canadian Army EME Manual Weapons C 500 p. 4 Issue 3 - 21 Apr 53
Image and close-up of same photo enhanced to show the number a little better.

Close-up examination shows that it is 74L0209 The full scope serial number is illegible in the photo. All I can read are the S and the /|\ that follows the SN.

[IMG]http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps7ff3f9d6.jpg[/IMG]

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...p_zps2cb-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seaforth72

"Lee-Enfield" - I think you meant to write High of 74L0350.

---

No, the lowest serial I have actually observed is 74L0000 and the highest is 74L0340 (held in my hot little hands...)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...os/TP%2020.JPG

looks like 209 might have lost it's rifle...or a very near relative

I'm suprised that Canada presumably had these telescope/rifles in their order of battle as late as '53 judging from the EMER date although C-500 is just the data summary. It's be interesting to see what othewr info the EMER held regarding these rifles. Most of the rifle stuff is pretty much the same as the No4 but zeroing will differ. The Telescope info will be under the I&S EMER (EMER I&S V500-509).

It would seem almost alien for there not to be spare/replacement telescopes within the Ordnance system. What a needless waste to send a rifle and second telescope (4430-S) to the UK if in doing to, you had to take it off a rifle!

I have never been able to trace a supply of - or even ONE - of the 'No12 sewing needle' said to have been used as the graticle in the Lymnans. This is in spite of having enquired afar as to such specialists as make military/pagentry/masonic regalia. All to no avail or even knowledge of such a size.

The leather eye caps for these telescopes makes them almost impossible to fit into the modified No8/18 case. While we're here....... Anyone have any idea whatsoever what the little square leather block on the strap is for? This little leather block is on both eye cap straps. The block is square, the same width and thickness as the actual strap and sewn on and sited JUST slightly to the rear of the centre line of the turret caps. I suppose it COULD be to protect the turret caps - but I doubt it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

No, the lowest serial I have actually observed is 74L0000 and the highest is 74L0340 (held in my hot little hands...)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...os/TP%2020.JPG

looks like 209 might have lost it's rifle...or a very near relative

---

Yes it looks like scope and bracket 74L0209 which was pictured in the EME manual has become detached from its rifle.

Re thread 22. Scope on bracket 0209 detached or lost from the rifle! How do you arrive at this? Has it turned up somewhere? Have I missed something in the telling?

Here is the 1955 LB TP put together I just sold. The only reason I parted with it is because I bought another one.



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TP1Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TP3Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TP4Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TP5Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TP6Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TP8Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P12Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P25Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P24Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P16Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P33Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P38Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P39Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P40Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...132Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...134Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P41Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

The one I just bought had 2 interesting features that attracted me. Aside from the really nice scope and upper mount, the lower bracket has the Canadian proof mark which is so rarely seen. (as has been explained in this thread) Actually, Stencollector pointed this rifle out to me.

This rifle also has an uber rare Canadian cheekrest. I've asked Warren W his opinion and he indicated to me that it was kosher. He's seen them before.

I've had several of the rifles with the unmarked lower bracket and the fit of the upper to the lower is different. This marked one is to a closer tolerance. I had to push to get it to go on, vs easily sliding the others.

Sadly, the rifle it's all mounted on is a 43 LB with a 24L s/n, which I doubt is right.

Incidentally, my REL scope tin (the right one for the TP) is marked 1943.

I had the repro leather caps made by Moore in the UK.

You could say I am fond of the TP, warts and all.

As imperfect as this set is, it's the best stuff I've been able to lay my mitts on.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TP1Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TP2Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TP7Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P14Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P17Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P19Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P20Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P27Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P30Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P32Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P33Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P34Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P11Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P12Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LargeJPG-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

Nice rifle, I specially appreciate the exposure on the Canadian cheek rest. Nice educational piece.

Was this pattern of cheek piece a post WW2 variation, & is it an 'official' design? Have owned LB 4T's with three different slight variants of cheek piece, but all not too dissimilar to the UK pattern. This one is vastly different.

The cheekpiece looks similar to several pictured in Without Warning. I looked in vain for a Canadian proof on the bottom of it.
Very nicely fitted up with a nice gap under it....not the work of a hacker. Some very obvious Canadian black walnut wood.
Not a lick of the wood set had ever seen linseed oil for a long time if ever.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...et4Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...et5Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t16Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t17Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t21Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t22Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t23Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t25Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t27Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t29Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t30Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t31Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t32Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t33Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P27Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P28Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P29Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P30Large-1.jpgUploaded at Snapagogo.com

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I'm suprised that Canada presumably had these telescope/rifles in their order of battle as late as '53 judging from the EMER date although C-500 is just the data summary. It's be interesting to see what othewr info the EMER held regarding these rifles. Most of the rifle stuff is pretty much the same as the No4 but zeroing will differ. The Telescope info will be under the I&S EMER (EMER I&S V500-509).

It would seem almost alien for there not to be spare/replacement telescopes within the Ordnance system. What a needless waste to send a rifle and second telescope (4430-S) to the UK if in doing to, you had to take it off a rifle!

I have never been able to trace a supply of - or even ONE - of the 'No12 sewing needle' said to have been used as the graticle in the Lymnans. This is in spite of having enquired afar as to such specialists as make military/pagentry/masonic regalia. All to no avail or even knowledge of such a size.

The leather eye caps for these telescopes makes them almost impossible to fit into the modified No8/18 case. While we're here....... Anyone have any idea whatsoever what the little square leather block on the strap is for? This little leather block is on both eye cap straps. The block is square, the same width and thickness as the actual strap and sewn on and sited JUST slightly to the rear of the centre line of the turret caps. I suppose it COULD be to protect the turret caps - but I doubt it!

---

Not so surprising when you consider that the same scope on the Garand was also in Canadian, and of course American use, as Colin mentioned in some detail earlier. According to "Without Warning" trials were underway by 1955 for a scope to fit the FNC1. Incidentally there is mention of a scope made by "B.O.P." which was Beaconing Optical Products Ltd., a company in Quebec IIRC and a "UK 3x Type 1956" scope being included in these trials; anyone know what that was?

There's mention of No.12 needles here: http://w w w.sewingpartsonline.com/gold-eye-quilting-needles-no-12-15pk.aspx

Without seeing a photo of the leather blocks, my guess would be that when the jaws or clamps in the modified No.8 case were closed the blocks were intended to sit on the inside edges of the jaws and (hopefully) prevent the scope from sliding in the jaws and striking one end against the inside of the case.

The need to remove the base to refit the barrel is a definite negative, though whether these rifles were ever intended for that kind of longer term service I don't know. Possibly not given that they were a wartime purchase only due to the shortage of No32s. The C67 was the post-war standard in the Canadian Army says "Without Warning".

Optically I don't think they're any worse than a No32 MkI or II. I doubt the sealing in the No32 MkI or II was any better either, look at the way water would pool on top of the range drum and no doubt soak down past the lead screw and its locking ring. Tests and trials have a way of producing the desired results it seems.;)

When Canada was looking to replace the FNC1 with ELCAN C1 scope, the L42 came last out of the four rifles trialed - although since the winner was the Parker Hale 1200TX, it certainly wasn't anti-British sentiment or "Not Invented Here" syndrome behind that result!;)

Lens size isn't everything - try a No32 against a Zeiss Zeilklein! The lack of external drums on the Lyman is its greatest defect, but again, wartime expedient purchase that hung around afterwards, like so many other pieces of kit.

If Lyman or others had been thinking, they might have recalled the etched glass reticule of the Warner & Swasey M.1913 scope and the three range finding stadia lines engraved thereon! It wouldn't have been too hard to produce a reticule like the Japanese Arisaka sniper rifles had and dispense with drums and all their problems entirely. They could have even illuminated it with some radium if they'd really put their minds to it!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff040-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I'm suprised that Canada presumably had these telescope/rifles in their order of battle as late as '53 judging from the EMER date although C-500 is just the data summary. It's be interesting to see what othewr info the EMER held regarding these rifles. Most of the rifle stuff is pretty much the same as the No4 but zeroing will differ. The Telescope info will be under the I&S EMER (EMER I&S V500-509).

It would seem almost alien for there not to be spare/replacement telescopes within the Ordnance system. What a needless waste to send a rifle and second telescope (4430-S) to the UK if in doing to, you had to take it off a rifle!

I have never been able to trace a supply of - or even ONE - of the 'No12 sewing needle' said to have been used as the graticle in the Lymnans. This is in spite of having enquired afar as to such specialists as make military/pagentry/masonic regalia. All to no avail or even knowledge of such a size.

...snip...

---

(EMER) CFTO C-71-111-000/MM-00 dated 1991-6-28 has zeroing instructions for the "C No32 TP" telescope, and the "No 32 Mk 1" telescope.

er.............. We know about the No32, what about revealing the Lyman stuff for those in need and without access to the 1991(?) Canadian EMER's

Much as I love pic's , the size of these are causing my poor old laptop to have a heart attack, how come you managed to get them uploaded?
Most programs require them to be within a specific size, I always resize to those spec's................not wanting to rain on your parade, but not everyone out here has and uses fancy modern computers.

Nice pic's though.

Couldn't agree more Muffer! Couldn't wait for page 3 to end.........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

er.............. We know about the No32, what about revealing the Lyman stuff for those in need and without access to the 1991(?) Canadian EMER's

---

Milsurps Knowledge Library - 1991 No.4 (All Marks) .303 Rifle Manuals (Complete Set))

it's right at the end of the instruction, just before the instructions on turning the rifle into DP status.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Couldn't agree more Muffer! Couldn't wait for page 3 to end.........

---

Sorry gents. I can delete all of my pics if people prefer. Not meaning to hog bandwidth or jam up computers.

All of my pics were resized to about 100KB average size vs the immense files modern cameras take. I did shrink them a lot.

Not much to say about the mere 10 lines about the No32TP telescope in the Canadian EMER! Hardly a lesson in zeroing! Maybe the RCEME author wrote to Warminster and asked to borrow our notes on zeroing those TP's brought over in the early 50's by the Belgians and Dutch!

Reminds me of one of those do-it-yourself car repair manuals. To replace clutch. 1) take engine out. 2) separate engine from gear box. 3) replace clutch. 4) bolt cgearbox back to engine. 5) replace engine into car

Looking a bit further down about the Canadian DP No4's. Do I take iot that the Canadian DP's didn't have bolts? Prompts me to ask how on earth you do the basic drills such as load and unload er......., without a bolt?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cantom

I can delete all of my pics if people prefer. Not meaning to hog bandwidth or jam up computers.

---

It all has to do with settings, they can change their settings so it's all on one page...takes way more before mine gets to page two.

Military Surplus Collectors Forums

here is what Cantoms rifle looked like when it was sold by Reese Surplus a few years ago.

I notice it had a somewhat different cheek piece, and a different finish

Indeed it does. Strange how that happens.

That experimental cheek rest is well shaped but it wouldn't last a week in front line service before splitting somewhere along the curve. Of course that may not be how they were fitted originally. Three more screws would be needed IMHO and some hide glue wouldn't be out of place either. Easy to see why they went to a one piece Monte Carlo stock not long afterwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seaforth72

Scopes can become damaged or lost in service, so one would reasonably expect a supply of spare scopes and parts. A spare scope # 4430S was sent to the UK along with a test rifle 74L0022 with scope 4419S and scope (re: Peter Laidler above). We have all seen how scopes were so often changed on No. 4 sniper rifles and the normal No. 32 scopes have a great reputation for toughness.

Only 351 Lyman scopes were ordered by Canada ( the 1943 trials one and 350 production models) (pp. 43 & 46 "Without Warning" by C. Law reference to the trials and the contract). Either there was a second contract for some spare scopes or fewer than 350 sniping rigs were assembled so as to leave some spare scopes.

Does anyone have any thoughts or even better, facts regarding these spare No. 32 (TP) Mk. I scopes?

Does anyone know what the "S" at the end of the serial number stood for? e.g. 4407S followed by a /|\ (though some did not have a broad arrow) which was not part of the serial number.

Thank you Peter for the information on the caps being standard Alaskan caps.

---

The Transit chest for this rifle 74L0022 has just shown up on a British dealer's site with a Deactivated LB No4T (claimed to be) it has an 88L prefix, could this be correct? Full serial number looks to be 88L1672

The scope is a HBM & Co Mk1 Serial Number 4842

For info, should anyone have 74L0022

https://www.dandbmilitaria.com/deact...le-set-sn-1612

The chest is a converted Bren which happened early in the war, but by the end? The chest markings also are non-standard, but then I have never seen a TP sniper chest.

More photo's would have been nice but the rifle is almost certainly wrong. The front pad looks like it may well be original but rather a take off from a late war BSA rifle. The rear pad also shows a considerable gap along its lower edge, again perhaps consistent with a set of pads off a British rifle (radiused receiver ledge) retrofitted to a Canadian (angled receiver ledge) rifle, The scope is original but refurbished. The bracket is an old one of mine. In one batch I did the machinist I employed stamped the circular witness mark across the bracket at the point where the casting was to be slit to separate the rear top clamp - the two ellipses remaining can still be clearly seen. As I've noticed a few times before when brackets crop up after the event it has not been fettled up properly to give a reasonable surface finish & is probably one I sold to someone in the trade for them to finish off themselves.

Like Lance I've never seen a TP transit chest, at least that I can remember......

NB. Bear in mind that the above is only my opinion on the rifle, & even if I am correct I am not in any way suggesting the vendor is knowingly selling a fake sniper's rifle. As mentioned above more detailed pix would help....

A snip at £8495.00 !

Caveat Emptor

The Canadian 32 TP sniper configuration used the standard no.15 chest, and only the scope can was different.
I have a TP scope can here if no one has seen one.

Got a can Warren - mismatched but correct, but my rifle never came with the transit chest. It was Rob Hallam's & was imported from Collector's Source for his (Charnwood's) collection, before I bought it from him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warren

The Canadian 32 TP sniper configuration used the standard no.15 chest, and only the scope can was different.
I have a TP scope can here if no one has seen one.

---

I'm still hunting for a can for mine Warren when you want to part with her!!

Same source is now selling an 'L42A1' with No.32 Mk2 scope etc.

https://www.dandbmilitaria.com/deact...-rifle-sn-5469

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roy W

Same source is now selling an 'L42A1' with No.32 Mk2 scope etc.

https://www.dandbmilitaria.com/deact...-rifle-sn-5469

---

SAD ! :crying::crying::crying:

On the positive side - One more neutered rifle increase the value of my 'live one'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

SAD ! :crying::crying::crying:

On the positive side - One more neutered rifle increase the value of my 'live one'.

---

No fear, it wouldn't even pass inspection by a blind man as a L42. The only interesting aspect, other than the 1955 dated No.8 Case, is the "ZA" marking below the boltway so proudly outlined in white.

Besides the impudence of describing such an assemblage as a genuine L42, what strikes me is they would probably have made more money selling the parts individually!

No point helping the next such project by enumerating all that's wrong with this one though!

The Enfield Envoy magazine mentioned presumably has the E___ number engraved on the bottom. The Stirling 7.62mm mag is a mystery. ;)

Interesting spiral groove in the outside of the barrel - out of some factory seconds bin?! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lance

The chest is a converted Bren which happened early in the war, but by the end? The chest markings also are non-standard, but then I have never seen a TP sniper chest.

---

The photos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surpmil

Interesting spiral groove in the outside of the barrel - out of some factory seconds bin?!

---

The European & UK 'decativation' requirements continue to evolve I'm not up to date on the lastest requirements but wonder if it may be part of the de-act requirements (ensuring the barrel cannot be used to build a live rifle)

The 'L42' is somewhat puzzling. Clearly not engraved up on the body side wall as would be expected on a 'real' one, yet within the limitations of the photographs the body looks like it might just conceivably be a real 4T. It is an X prefix 1945 BSA rifle which is a commonly seen year & prefix combination in 4T's. It looks like it may have the textured brunofixing remaining on it, & the front pad just looks 'right'. Can't see the rear pad because it is covered by the Pacific Rim repro bracket.

The scope is worth a second look; there appears to be file or linish marks in line with the 'Telescope Sighting' as though this has been engraved over something that was there previously. The scope is dated 1944 & would appear to be a Mk2, yet it bears the Mk1 Optical Stores part number of OS 466A (should read 1650 on a Mk2)....Odd.

Also, the barrel looks a little 'slim' for an L42 barrel, although it may just be an effect of the camera angle or the light.

Again, better photographs would help here.......

No question that was once a No4(T) IMHO. Now it's a tragedy or a farce depending on the angle of viewing. :D

Certainly the first time we've seen a "M" for metres marking on a MkII scope scale - very hush-hush Rhodesian issue no doubt! ;)

Glad we're in agreement....:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

The European & UK 'decativation' requirements continue to evolve I'm not up to date on the lastest requirements but wonder if it may be part of the de-act requirements (ensuring the barrel cannot be used to build a live rifle)

---

I know nothing about that, but would have thought the damage would be done in the chamber area(?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Glad we're in agreement....:D

---

That's because we're so agreeable! :D

"You'll soon get used to her looks said he, and a very nice gun you'll find her,
She might easily pass for a '42 in the dusk with the light behind her!" :lol:

W.S. Gilbert

This dealers sister website had the L”faux-ty two” listed for sale a while back on its own, just the rifle and scope. Looks like they’ve decided to make up the CES and list it on their main site now in the hope of getting silly money for it.

Re the scope: The second 'I' looks like it may have been added subsequently, it's not in line with the first one.

What is the 'sister site'? out of curiosity.

Roy,

It’s here Deactivated Lee Enfield no.4 t Sniper Rifle | no.4 t Sniper Rifle

It’s a shame that they have some less than correct items as they do get some interesting stuff on their main website - PIAT or an AIM9 Sidewinder anyone?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surpmil

...snip... The only interesting aspect, ...snip..., is the "ZA" marking below the boltway so proudly outlined in white.

...snip...:D

---

Not to comment on the originality of the rifle nor it's markings, but:

ZA- 1234x is in fact a Zimbabwe military property marking/serial number - just like RA-1234x was a Rhodesian military property marking.

a quick interweb search turned up a number of FN-FAL rifles with ZA-XxXxX and RA-XxXxX numbers - it appears that the Zimbabwe forces only brought the ZA numbering into use on newly aquired weaponry as the photos I foound show a mixed bag of number series. FN FAL receiver G1 German Army gun parts original

Well that's interesting, so Zimbabwe sold off a bunch of old weaponry as South Africa has been doing recently? Z.A. can also be Zuid Afrika of course, but I'm not contesting your assertion.

Still not an L42, and we all know it, so why keep mum; except to fool the dumb? ;)

On the BREN CHEST marked for Canadian Trade Pattern sniper rifle rifle 74L0022 with Lyman scope 4419 S: My research database shows that this rifle and this scope are in Peter Laidler's collection. The chest is marked for the Small Arms School at Hythe which is logical for a rifle sent from Canada for testing. The chest appears to have been "repurposed" with older markings painted out. It might be original as assigned to the rifle in the UK during trials. My matching Trade Pattern version of the No. 4 Mk. I* (T) with its mismatched scope case C No. 18 Mk. I fits nicely into a regular Canadian and British No. 15 Mk. I transit chest.

On the alleged L42A1 (so much is wrong with it): The scope is a puzzle to me. The scope is marked as a Mk. II but it has the Optical Stores number OS. 466 A is for a No. 32 Mk. I. The serial number appears to have been deliberately obscured.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surpmil

Interesting spiral groove in the outside of the barrel - out of some factory seconds bin?!

---

I'm not sure that the "spiral" groove isn't actually a wire that the rifle is hanging from for that photo and what we're seeing is the remains of it post photoshopping? It doesn't appear in any of the other photos.

I'm not convinced that the scope isn't actually a repro that has been "aged", etc. The reproduction bracket and cradle screws have certainly been well worked over to give some patina!

That's possible, though what I called a groove looks concave along the top edge of the barrel to me.

Agree on the scope & bracket and someone got the rear ring cap on backwards, but having damaged the screw slots beyond repair, couldn't get it off again! :ugh: