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The following article was written by the late Charles Karwan. Karwan was a West Point graduate, Vietnam combat veteran, and considered to be an expert on tactical :thup:weaponry.
The M1 Carbine For SELF-DEFENSE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET
Good reading.
Thanks for listing it.
Jim
And I finally have one! https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...anadance-3.gif
Excellent article... What is old, is new again. Excellent points made on the use and effectivness of our lauded companion...
jim
Congrats! welcome to Carbine Lovers Anonymous. Hi my name is Bernie and I am a Carbine-aholic!
On a serious note, when I shot that deer 20 years ago (I was in my underpants on the front porch in the mountains and the carbine was handy...but that's another story and the statute of limitations long ago ran out:D), I was amazed at the damage it did.
It was a 75 yard+ heart-lung shot (just nicked the heart), nearly broadside on a 175+ pound Sierra Black Tail deer. I know the distance because the pump house was 75 yards from the porch and the deer was past the pump house. I used a 110 grn WW JHP. It took out one rib on entry, did a heck of a lot of damage inside, and at least two (maybe three) ribs on the exit. I was still a cop back then, and as I was dressing it out, I remember on thinking "Sh@t! That did a lot of damage for a puny carbine! I'd hate to get shot with this!!!!" It was as damaged as similar shots I have made with .30-30 and .303 British. That was the point where I decided it had been an excellent choice for my LE trunk gun!
imarangemaster, I hope you don't mind but I used your article to post in a couple of threads down to a fella who thinks that the carbine is under powered and should have been made in .45.
Thank you!
The "Myth" of the carbine not working is just that, an old wives tale. After retiring, I went back to college at age 48 for 3 1/2 years to became a high school history teacher. I have been teaching almost 6 years now. Being a student of History, I try to emphasize how much of History is really myths that are perpetuated. The best source of facts is primary sources... In this case people who have used the carbine to do the job.
While in my experience, the deer was not trying to kill me. He would have been just as dead even if he was. A guy I worked with when I was 19 in Chicago was a grunt in France. While he preferred the Garand or BAR in open country, he said he ALWAYS used a carbine in clearing towns. He never said how many Germans he took out with it. He merely stated, in the style of that great generation, "It always made good Nazis into dead ones."
My dad carried one on Iwo as part of the advance waive of Army Headquarters while the Marines were still there. (He came in on the same troop transport as the Marines, and watched starting "day one" through the sniper scope of an M1C. He actually saw the FIRST flag raised.) Being signal corps, he carried a carbine. He was reluctant to talk much about Iwo, but do know he was nearly killed a number of times. When I asked him about the carbine, he would only say that from what he saw, it worked "great". I have spoken with dozens of vets who used them in anger from WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. The only ones that I ever had bad mouth it, never actually used one. With a little digging, it was usually based on "scuttlebutt" heard from someone, who heard it from someone else.
Many people in the black rifle "tacticool" world and mall commandos think it has to be an M4gery or AK with whistles and bells to be effective. Don't get me wrong, I have a restored to AK103 style Saiga in 7.62x39. Great weapon. That does not, however, exclude the Carbine for being what it is: A fine weapon.
In a way, I am a usurper here, as I am not a collector. But I am a life long user, appreciator, and advocate for the Carbine. I did depend on it for my life on numerous occasions in much of my 20 years. I did use an XM177E1 for about two years, but the rest was mostly my Trusted "Carbine, M1, Caliber .30 US"
I apologize to the forum for being on my soap box. I just get irritated with the persisting myth of "carbine cr@ppiness"
I also apologize for my ramblings. I am Irish and a teacher. That makes me a natural story teller. Add to that that I am a staff writer for SASS's Cowboy Chronicle and do monthly articles on firearms evaluation and history.
The only downsides to an M1 carbine apart from magazine induced malfunctions (rather common in my experience) are that the sights are a little "slower" into action than the M-16 and they don't do well in low light situations. Lowering and reaming out the peep on the "long range" leg of a flip sight helps w/ low light, just no tritium front sight available of which I'm aware. An ambidextrous safety would be nice too!
I agree about stock sights being less than optimum for low light. Drilling out the 100 flip is a good idea, and we have seen WW2 carbines with the wings cut off the front sight. An ambi safety would be a good upgrade, also. It could be a keyway/slot screw on like early ambidextrous M16 safeties. A front rail handguard with a reflex or red dot would work well to 50 yards, even if it didn't hold exact zero...
But, leaving 21st century dabbling behind, feeding problems on GI 15s, in my experience, are either badly worn mag catch or lugs on the mag, or a follower and spring being in in reverse. A worn and collapsed recoil spring could be a problem, also. I have had bad luck with aftermarket 30s (especially since many have lousy springs), but had good luck with GI 30s. I have a couple "J"s, an OKAY, AYP, and GI SEY AND AI that have all functioned 100% except with Wolf and Aguilla. In 20 years of shooting a carbine, and thousands of rounds later, those would be the only function problems I have had.
With regard to the carbine's sights, in it's credit, it's a very natural pointer and is like an extension of your body. I have owned both the AR and AK and have never felt they were natural pointers. Much of this may have to do with the sight's relationship to the bore axis. Many times I have shot the carbine quickly with only sighting down the barrel and have been dead on at short ranges. I have a WWII carbine that appears to be totally original with the exception of having the rear flip sight leaf filed to create wings that match the front sight. It makes for a very quick unobsructed sighting picture to the front sight post. On the bottom of the stock, in very small letters, is carved with the initials B AA. My imagination runs wild.
"B AA" If that carbine could tell it's story. Wow. I haven't seen the modification you talk about, but have heard of it. You should post a picture. It seems like a good idea.
I agree it is a much more natural pointer than an AR or AK. I have owned many of both through the years, but never did feel any were as natural as my Carbine. You are probably right about bore access in relation to sight height. Like a shot gun, the carbine lends itself to point shooting just looking across the top down the barrel. On a man sized target at 25 meters, shooting this way you would most certainly hit. My Saiga AK isn't to bad at point shooting, but no where near as easy as the carbine.
PS
I did see the ring on a sliding peep on a type 3 that was cut off and the base had a square notch cut in it like an AK rear sight. The guy used it on the 200 or 250 yard setting. He liked it.
We used to have an M1 Carbine sub-class at the "tactical" matches at Ft. Benning. I used to run a carbine and and several AR variants back to back during the day/night shoots. Even if we were running 10 round max capacity to be "PC", the carbines just wouldn't keep up.
Regardless, they are still quite useful and I like 'em-I've had one a lonnng time. (My first centerfire rifle, I think.)
My cousin's NRA/DCM M1 carbine was the first centerfire rifle I fired. The first one I owned was a No4, Mk1 .303 Sporter. Killed lots of deer and hogs with that one.
If I had to fight a war, the Carbine would not be my first choice. AK103 in 7.62x39 first choice, M16A4 (not M4) with MK 262 Mod1 77 OTBT ammo second choice, then maybe Galil or even an HK G3.
For me (not fighting a war) the M1 Carbine full of 110 grn JSP Remington will do just fine to protect the house and farm. My Saiga 7.62x39 (with a RAM2000 ambi speed catch) would be a back up, but it is more than I need for the house.
Well, I have an old war story about my uncle that didn't care for the carbine. He went through training with the M1 rifle, and when he got to Korea, he was issued a carbine. Well, my uncle stands 6' 6" and the carbine was just too dang small for a guy his size. Another guy in his unit was rather upset too because he was trained on the carbine and was issued the M1 rifle in Korea, and he was a guy of rather small stature. Well, they just made a swap, and all turned out well.
I guess that the biggest complaint about the carbines knock-down power came from guys that used both the rifle and carbine in combat, and no, the carbine round isn't a .30-06... but I wouldn't want to get hit by either one.
Don't get me wrong. I really love the M1 carbine, especially as a PDW (100 yards and less). As I said before, however, if I had to have a "assault rifle" to fight a war with, it would be an AK103 (current incarnation of the AKM). My restored Saiga shoots about 2 MOA with it's hammer forged barrel. I know that is blasphemy on this old timer GI board, but they are virtually indestructible and reliable beyond belief.
With that said, however, I am not fighting a war. My Underwood will sit on the shelf ready to defend the homestead...a task that I trust mine and my families life to it to do. The 110 grn Remington JSPs are VERY effective as a PDW round. It was, after all, the Army's first PDW, and was ahead of its time. In fact, at 5.5 pounds and 35 inches, I think The M1 (or M2) Carbine is an ideal PDW.
My apologies. I am not trying to be redundant, just to clarify.
My father carried an M1 carbine while serving as an Army forward observer in the 9th Infantry Division during WW2. He saw action in Africa, Sicily, Normandy and Germany. (I have a picture of him in Normandy, June 1944, carrying a carbine.)
He started with a Springfield, which he liked. He then tried a Garand and Thompson but ended up preferring the carbine because it was light, used a high capacity magazine, and he could quickly pull it from a scabbard and shoot while driving a jeep!
Since his job was about moving rapidly, avoiding contact, and keeping out of sight, it was the perfect choice defensive weapon.
When he had to use it, he was usually close to his target. It never once failed him.
He's still here to talk about it. That's pretty good proof of it's effectivness.
Awesome! Any chance you could post the pic? I have pics of my dad on Iwo, but none with his carbine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imarangemaster
Sure. I'll be seeing my Dad Thanksgiving week and get the pic from him, scan and post it. He's standing next to a knocked out German pillbox, holding his carbine. Pillbox was knocked out by naval gunfire he directed.