Police: Man said 30,000 bullets were for target practice He is held on $500,000 bail

By Paul Tennant
ptennant@eagletribune.com

HAVERHILL — Keni Garcia told police he intended to use the 30,000 bullets they found in his car and home for target practice.

That is hard to believe, the prosecutor at Garcia's arraignment said, because if he were to fire a gun for eight hours a day, it would take weeks for him to use all of it.

Garcia, who allegedly bought thousands of rounds of ammunition and had 10,000 bullets in his car when he was stopped by police Thursday, was ordered held on $500,000 cash bail yesterday.

Attorney Socrates de la Cruz of Lawrence, who represented Garcia, 32, of 12 Freeman St., at his arraignment in Haverhill District Court, said he will appeal the high bail in Superior Court.

Garcia is charged with three counts of possession of a high-capacity firearm, illegal possession of ammunition and illegal storage of a firearm. His case was continued until June 12.

Assistant District Attorney Christopher Holland asked Judge Patricia Dowling to impose $750,000 cash bail.

"He has no reason to stay here," Holland said.

The judge ordered Garcia to surrender his passport, and said that if he makes bail he is not to leave Massachusetts.

Garcia is a native of the Dominican Republic who was expected to become a U.S. citizen yesterday, but then he was arrested, authorities said.

Police arrested Garcia after he had left Interstate 495 at Exit 49 Thursday. They said they found 10,000 rounds of ammunition in his car. His two young daughters also were in the car, police said.

Holland said at Garcia's arraignment that a "joint effort" by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and state police found that Garcia had previously bought 20,000 rounds of ammunition in New Hampshire.

Garcia told police he only intended to use the bullets for target practice at a rifle range, Holland said, disputing Garcia's explanation. His common law wife, Elizabeth Reynoso, consented to a search and police found another 20,000 rounds, Holland said. They also found one .38-caliber and two 9 mm handguns, and $25,000 in cash, Holland said.

The prosecutor said all of the bullets seized from Garcia were for .38-caliber, 9 mm and .22-caliber firearms. Such ammunition is "like gold in the Dominican Republic," he said.

Holland said Reynoso told police he had "a shipping type of business" and that the $25,000 in cash must have come from Garcia cashing a business check.

"Where is the crime?" de la Cruz asked. The lawyer said Garcia had lived in New Hampshire for three years before recently moving to Haverhill.

"He bought the guns legally," de la Cruz said. "He never hid the fact that he had them."

Furthermore, de la Cruz said that when Garcia moved to Haverhill, he had a 60-day grace period to obtain a Massachusetts firearms card.

"There is no crime committed," he argued, saying there was no evidence that Garcia was shipping guns or ammunition to the Dominican Republic.

He asked the judge to allow his client "to go back to his job." He said Garcia has worked at a local bakery for three years.

Yesterday, Freeman Street residents interviewed by The Eagle-Tribune said they did not know anything about Garcia or guns and ammunition being stored at or shipped from his home.

Medline Abiles, of 43 Freeman St., who resides across the street from Garcia's house, said that in the two months she has lived in the neighborhood, she has not observed any weapons or ammunition and had no reason to be suspicious. Her sister, Carmen Reyes, who visits frequently, said she also had never noticed anything suspicious at the two-family house at 12 Freeman St.

Police: Man said 30,000 bullets were for target practice - EagleTribune.com, North Andover, MA

I don't see the violation here. Just another jerk trying to make a buck on the ignorance and greed of gun owners. I have seen guys here on this forum brag about having enough powder, primers, etc to reload this many and more rounds. They go on to say that if you don't have that much on hand you are stupid and don't "plan ahead." Just in the past couple of days somebody (here) boasted about having 64 lbs of 846, enough to load 18,000 rounds of .223

This is why folks like me that load a couple hundred rounds a year, are forced to use SR primers in SP applications. Profiteering used to be frowned upon. Today, if you don't think profiteering is a good thing, you are just bitter because you don't do it. I call it ignorance gone to seed and I abhor it. It is still not illegal however, nor is greed and avarice. :banghead:

Sorry but I not only do not see any crime in this but buying any comodity is still not immoral or a crime, buy all you want and enjoy it for as long as you can because you just might not be able to afford or find it in the future. Given the prezident of this once great country I would not want to be without a means to protect what "I worked hard for"....P**s on the new Nazi freaks.

Regards
BudT



.::The Montana Standard::.



Stockpiling ammo: Fear of potential Obama laws causing mass sales
By PERRY BACKUS Ravalli Republic - 05/20/2009

FLORENCE - Every day, Darren Newsom's three Bitterroot Valley Ammunition facilities crank out 300,000 rounds of ammunition.

It's not nearly enough.

"I'm going about 100,000 rounds in the wrong direction every day," Newsom said. "We probably have about six months of back orders right now." Newsom has been in the ammunition manufacturing business for more than 20 years and he's never seen demand this high.

Fearful of the Obama administration's potential to tighten gun control laws, people from all over the country are stocking up on guns and ammunition.

"I went through the Clinton years and there was a bit of a scare then," Newsom said. "This is like the Clinton years on steroids. Š On the day of the election, our phones started going nuts. It hasn't stopped since." As a master distributor for ATK - the world's largest ammunition business - Bitterroot Valley Ammunition supplies other ammunition manufacturers around the country with the components needed to make bullets.

"I get a million primers in every other day and most are shipped out the very next day," he said. "I have 100 million primers on back order right now. We just can't get enough of them." At a recent gun show in Salt Lake City, Newsom sold somewhere between 300,000 and 400,000 rounds in the first two hours.

"It's just unreal," he said. "Somewhere in lots of basements around the country, there are millions of rounds of ammunition being stored." Local businesses have felt the ammunition shortage.

At Bob Ward's in Hamilton, Mike Matteson said there has been quite a run on ammunition and reloading supplies like bullets and powder since the election.

"We are especially low right now with pistol ammunition," Matteson said. "There are four or five calibers that we don't even have on our shelves." Matteson said he didn't believe manufacturers were prepared for the panic buying that's occurred since the election.

"They tell us that they're months behind on some calibers - .22 ammo is really tough to come by," he said. "Our gun sales are up somewhere between 30 (percent) to 35 percent or better. A good percentage of those sales are pistols." Firearm and ammo sales aren't the only place where concerns about gun control are cropping up.

Ravalli County Sheriff Chris Hoffman has seen a marked increase in the number of people applying for concealed weapons permits since November.

Montana is a "will-issue" state for concealed weapons permits. Any law-abiding citizen who fills out the application and can show they've completed some form of firearm safety course can obtain a permit.

The county is averaging about 38 requests for renewals or new permits a month. Last year, the requests averaged about 25.

"It's definitely a noticeable increase," Hoffman said.

The sheriff said he's hearing from people who are concerned about what might happen over the next four years with the gun control issue.

"We are being asked what would be the stance of local law enforcement if the federal government calls for the confiscation of firearms," Hoffman said. "That's a very real concern for people." Gary Marbut, the longtime president of the Montana Shooting Sports Association in Missoula, said the seeds of the current ammunition shortage can be traced back almost a decade to the Y2K scare.

"Many people became concerned about their ability to get ammunition back then and they stocked up quite a bit," Marbut said.

In the intervening years, China blossomed and bought up world copper supplies. Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan used up warehouses full of U.S. ammunition that needed to be replenished. That forced higher prices for civilian ammunition and people started using some of the bullets they had squirreled away after Y2K, Marbut said.

And now, with the current economic and political uncertainty, people are looking to restock their supplies at a time when most ammunition manufacturers aren't willing to expand their operations.

"The whole demand side of this is so flexible and the supply side is not," he said.

The ammunition shortage is creating a bit of an economic boon for Ravalli County.

Newsom plans to open a fourth manufacturing facility in Stevensville sometime in September. He employs about 50 people right now and could add up to another 100.

"There are a lot of people out of work right now," he said. "Two years ago, I probably couldn't find 10 people to go to work for us. Now I have 10 people a day coming in here looking for a job." Newsom believes the need for ammunition won't go away. This scare is creating a whole new group of ammunition customers for the future, he said.

Need proof?

Take the .380 caliber pistol. A year ago, Newsom said there was hardly a demand for the ammunition. Since then, the .380 auto pistol has become very popular with women.

"One year ago, it wasn't in demand and now it's some of the most sought ammunition in the U.S.," he said. "There are more people getting into shooting and that's one thing about ammunition - you can only shoot it once." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are a lot of things that are not illegal but are still immoral, stupid, arrogant, butthole, obnoxious, underhanded and stupid. BJ's in the Oval Office is one example... "buy all you want and enjoy it for as long as you can..." is another illustration that proves the point. Americans have entirely lost their moral compass. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right.

"are still immoral, stupid, arrogant, butthole, obnoxious, underhanded and stupid."
"example... "buy all you want and enjoy it for as long as you can..." is another illustration that proves the point. Americans have entirely lost their moral compass. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right."

Exactly how many rounds is a moraly acceptable purchase?

It sounds like they're trying to justify the arrest by stating that the guy is in "some type of shipping business" and is from Dominican Republic, where there's a high demand for ammunition. If anyone can be arrested for things they MIGHT do, then we're all screwed.

So, I guess, it's a crime now to have quantities of ammo? Are you now to be arrested for having more than enough ammo? Granted, having 30,000 bullets in your possession is alot, but never would consider it a crime. What's next...

Let's say you have 1000 lbs of lead (pure, wheel weights, etc) in your home for casting bullets. Are you to be arrested for having that much lead? The way that this is going - yes!! It would seem the inmates are now running the asylum!!! The mindless liberals at work again!!!

I would tend to think that Washington, DC is too small to be a country; too large to be an insane asylum!!!

#1,He should have never moved to Massachusetts,its rabidly anti/gun.

#2,Massachusetts is a Commonwealth and law "MAY"?have different interpretations?

Here in mass, where he wasnt a U.S. citizen (was to be naturalized 2 days after his arrest), he couldnt get a fid card, so possessing the guns and ammo is strike 1. having more than 10k rounds of ammo without a special storage permit from the fire chief strike 2. There are a few more against him. Just big thing was he wasnt licensed to posses them.

Since it looks like he just moved to Mass, isn't there a 60 day window to get the permits?
He would have been a citizen by that time.

Also it looks like they started looking at him buying while he was in another state.

I am thinking there is more to the story than whats in the article.

On another forum someone mentioned that he was called by the ATF(?) after buying a quantity of 223. Seems like the store reported the sale.

1. having more than 10k rounds of ammo without a special storage permit from the fire chief

Is this a Massachusetts' requirement? Carl

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RED

There are a lot of things that are not illegal but are still immoral, stupid, arrogant, butthole, obnoxious, underhanded and stupid. BJ's in the Oval Office is one example... "buy all you want and enjoy it for as long as you can..." is another illustration that proves the point. Americans have entirely lost their moral compass. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right.

---

Actually, in Massachusetts it is illegal to posess components without a permit. He may have had a 60 day grace period to get a permit but as a current resident he didn't have a right to buy additional components which are treated the same as ammunition. He already had a lot of components all he had to do was wait until he got the permit. He would have had to get a Class A license since he possessed a high capacity firearm.

Having said that, I've heard of two other people in different parts of Massachusetts who have been arrested for having large quantities of ammunition. In both instances the neighbors just complained about them for reasons other then guns.

I don't know what happened to them.

Are we dealing with "sneak" ammo control, the same kind of "ammunition registration" that the Maryland State Police have instigated using funds from a Brady Campaign grant. I am just jealous that I can't make a "grant" and buy some state cops to carry out my personal agenda. I wonder if they are cheaper by the dozen?

Jim

That is off the hook!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carl R

1. having more than 10k rounds of ammo without a special storage permit from the fire chief

Is this a Massachusetts' requirement? Carl

---

yep

CODE OF MASSACHUSETTS REGULATIONS
TITLE 527: BOARD OF FIRE PREVENTION REGULATIONS
CHAPTER 13.00: EXPLOSIVES
(1) Exemption: License, Registration, or Permit: In accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 148 § 13, the Board hereby prescribes the following quantities of explosive materials that shall be exempt from License, Registration, and Permit and may be kept, or stored in a building or other structure:
(a) Small Arms Ammunition
1. Not more than 10,000 rounds of rim fire ammunition.
2. Not more than 10,000 rounds of center fire ammunition.
3. Not more than 5,000 rounds of shotgun ammunition.
(b) Small Arms Ammunition Primers
1. Not more than 1,000 caps or other small arms primers.
(c) Smokeless Propellants
1. Not more than 16 pounds.
1. Not more than 16 pounds.
2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store Smokeless Propellants.
3. Not more than two pounds of such propellant shall be stored in a multiple family dwelling or a building of
public access.
(d) Black Powder
1. Not more than two pounds.
2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store black powder.
(e) Exempt quantities of small arms ammunition, primers, smokeless propellants and black powder shall be stored in original containers and such containers shall be stored
in a locked cabinet, closet or box when not in use….

(2) Storage By Permit: In accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 148 § 13, the Board hereby prescribes the following quantities of explosive materials that shall be exempt from License, and Registration, and may be kept, or stored in a building or other structure provided a permit has been obtained from the head of the local fire department;
(a) Small Arms Ammunition: Private Use. Small arms ammunition in amounts over that specified in 527 CMR 13.04(1), that do not exceed 100,000 total rounds at any one time, may be kept for private use provided none of the individual limitations listed below are exceeded.
1. 10,001 to 30,000 rounds of rim fire ammunition.
2. 10,001 to 50,000 rounds of center fire ammunition not to include shotgun ammunition.
3. 10,001 to 50,000 rounds of shotgun ammunition not to include center fire ammunition….
(c) Small Arms Ammunition Primers: Private Use
Not to exceed 10,000 Small Arms Ammunition Primers…..
(e) Smokeless Propellants: Private Use
1. Not to exceed 48 pounds Smokeless Propellants.
2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store Smokeless Propellants.
3. The head of the local fire department may limit the quantity of smokeless propellants stored by permit to as low as two pounds if such propellant shall be stored in a multiple family dwelling or a building of public access.
(g) Black Powder: Private Use
1. Not to exceed five pounds of black powder.
2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store black powder.
3. The head of the local fire department may limit the quantity of black powder stored by permit to as low as two pounds if such black powder shall be stored in a multiple family dwelling or a building of public access.


13.11: Small Arms Ammunition and Primers, Smokeless Propellants, and Black Powder
(1) Basic Requirements.
(a) 527 CMR 13.11 shall apply to the transportation and storage of small arms ammunition, primers and components, smokeless propellants and black powder.
(b) In addition to all other applicable requirements of 527 CMR 13.00, intrastate transportation of small arms ammunition small arms primers, smokeless propellants, and black powder shall comply with U.S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations.
(c) 527 CMR 13.11 shall apply to the channels of distribution of and to the users of small arms ammunition small arms primers, smokeless propellants, and black powder.
(d) 527 CMR 13.11 shall not apply to in-process storage and interplant transportation during manufacture.
(2) Small Arms ammunition.
(a) No restrictions shall be imposed on the interstate transportation of small arms ammunition other than those imposed by the U.S. Department of Transportation or by other hazardous materials regulations.
(3) Small Arms ammunition Primers.
(a) Small arms ammunition primers shall be transported, kept, or stored in containers approved by the U.S. Department of Transportation.
(b) Transportation of small arms ammunition primers shall comply with U.S. Department of Transportation Regulations.
(c) No more than 5,000 small arms ammunition primers shall be transported in a private vehicle.
(d) No more than 5,000 small arms primers shall be stored in residences.
(4) Smokeless Propellants.
(a) Transportation of smokeless propellants not exceeding 25 lbs in a private vehicle, shall be transported in shipping containers approved by the U.S. Department of Transportation.
(b) Transportation of quantities of smokeless propellants exceeding 25 lbs but not exceeding 48 lbs, in a private vehicle, shall be transported in a portable magazine having wood walls of at least one inch nominal thickness, and permitted by the Marshal in accordance with 527 CMR 13.04(6).
(c) Transportation of more than 48 lbs. of smokeless propellants in a private vehicle is prohibited.
(e) Smokeless propellants shall be stored in original shipping containers specified by U.S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations.
(f) Smokeless propellants intended for private use in quantities not exceeding 48 lbs stored in residences shall be kept in the original manufacturers container or in a wooden box or cabinet having wooden walls of at least one-inch nominal thickness. All smokeless propellants stored in private residences shall be stored in the original containers; such containers shall be secured in a locked cabinet, closet, or box when not in use.
(5) Black Powder.
(a) Black powder not exceeding five lbs transported in a private vehicle, shall be transported in shipping containers approved by the U.S. Department of Transportation.
(b) Transportation of quantities of black powder exceeding five lbs but not exceeding 25 lbs, in a private vehicle, shall be transported in a portable magazine having wood walls of at least one inches nominal thickness, and permitted by the Marshal in accordance with 527 CMR 13.04(6).
(c) Transportation of more than 25 lbs. of blackpowder in a private vehicle is prohibited. l
M.G.L.A. 148 § 10B
Violation of regulations of the board
Any person who knowingly violates any rule or regulation made by the board of fire prevention regulations shall, except as otherwise provided, be punished by a fine of not

Looks to me like the main problem here is not the fact he was hoarding ammo, having it without the proper permits, and can't answer to just what he was doing with it.

The problem here is he was LIVING in a gun hating, too many regulations, blue state.

When his arsenal grew to more than one box of ammo, he should have got out of that infested area.

Myself and a few others at the club usually buy by the 5000 round case so an order of 20,000 to 30,000 is the norm. Og G-- hope we don't go to jail! Bunch of liberal ********s up east need to go back to civic's class.

Gun control by Fire Ordinances is what it looks like to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim K

Are we dealing with "sneak" ammo control, the same kind of "ammunition registration" that the Maryland State Police have instigated using funds from a Brady Campaign grant. I am just jealous that I can't make a "grant" and buy some state cops to carry out my personal agenda. I wonder if they are cheaper by the dozen?

Jim

---

Hey Jim - Elaborate your your comment! Sounds like a "Cheap Shot" to me:nono::nono:

All I know,Fireman in my village don't like stockpiles of Ammo in a burning house,and do have a right to know of such.I know I would!

Lets see, one brick of .22's is 500 rounds. How many bricks in a case?

Even in Taxachussets this sounds like a defence attorny's dream.

I would not have a problem with it being illegal for any non-citizen to possess firearms or ammunition while in this country. . . of course I'm also against non-citizens getting free health care and education or even being issued drivers licenses too.

JB White nailed it!

There is no limit on the storage of ammunition in residences shown in the NFPA codes. And, it is not a danger to firefighters, unless it (like all other combustibles) is stored within 36" of an open flame appliance.

Neal
Fire Inspector III

Goleee thar, I guess I better not move to a kennedy state since I would be busted for the ammo and components I have now.
Next thing you know they might make it illegal to get drunk and drive your car off a bridge!:rolleyes:

"Next thing you know they might make it illegal to get drunk and drive your car off a bridge!":rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

It all depends who you are, John. As Teddy would say "Do as I say, not as I do":nono:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Haas

Hey Jim - Elaborate your your comment! Sounds like a "Cheap Shot" to me:nono::nono:

---

Hey Jim - Apparently you can't back your comment up. Your silence is deafing!
Regards..Mike Haas

The people here that don't like that someone has 30,000 rounds of ammo are mad becoause they DON"T have 30.000 rounds of ammo, or primers or powder. I understand the sentament and jelousy when people brag that they have so much, especially if it used to insult someone for not having any components.
The feeling is natural to resnt those that have more than you. It is the primary ingredient in democratic politics, and victimization.
You have no components, so you are a victim somehow of people that have stocked up. They spent money that a lot of us prioritized to other things like food, mortgages, and medical expenses.
Most people that cannot spend as much for components and guns are in the hole for non secured dept, upside down car loans, and four wheeler payments, not to mention the house mortgage, gas, and electric bills.
I would love to have 100,000 primers, and 16 pounds of powder. I could have bought them last summer, but I didn't. It doesn't make me stupid. It just means I had better things to do with the extra money I had.
I am debt free except for my mortgage. I could have spent money on primers and powder that I could not use up in my lifetime, or spend the extra cash on my debt. I wish I had spent more on primers, powder, and bullets. If you did...Good for you.

Now that I'm retired I shoot 7K to 10K rounds a year. So 4 cases of primers and a lot of powder go down range each year. I save money by buying in bulk quanties.

:dancingbanana:

Neal and others have it right, ammo is not as much of a problem as "other" items in a fire. Reloading components if stored in the proper containers are not a problem for any experienced Fireman, thats just the plain and simple truth of it. A lot of the "hype" about ammo being a fire problem comes from ignorant, uneducated and in-experienced people including Firemen. Your wondering now about my qualifications to speak of Fire related things? I am a retired profesional full time Fireman with 31 1/2 years in the CDF now known as Cal Fire and have worked not only in Structure protection/suppresion but Wildland, Wildland urban interface ect. As a Fireman I have been hit many times by exploding ammo and as long as I was wearing full protective gear I suffered nothing more than being a bit startled by the pop, a pressureized vessile is entirley a different thing.....they are dangerous.

I also agree with Flick 2141 on his analsis of the buying of ammo and components. Those of us that decided to buy a good deal are not evil or bad people as Red would have others believe, we simply put some of our extra cash to items that we could or would use at some point. When I go to a store and see a good deal on canned corn I will buy a case or even more, am I hoarding? by Reds thinking I am. So Red.....practice what you preach, don't buy that larger pack of chicken fryer parts because you don't need them. Buy exactly what you need for "right" now, same for gas dont fill the tank only put a gallon or two in just enough for you to get to the store to buy enough grocries for "right" now and not later. After all if you buy that extra chicken or gas you will be hoarding gas and chicken that "I" need for my grill today.

Regards

BudT

Remember our Veterans, today is a special day to honor our War dead and the living that gave us so much.:clap:

I for one have never had a problem with others stocking up. I buy bullets and primers in bulk and on sale whenever I'm able to afford to do so.

The reason many of us here are miffed is due to hoarding, not the stockpiling which the industry has always been able to keep up with. Those who never would buy ammo and components by the pallet load are doing so now and are willing to pay the artificially inflated prices they helped to create.

Those prices may not come down to reasonable levels again. I'm concerned with what happens once the hype and hysteria ends. Those prices keeping others from entering or continuing in the shooting fraternity.

This shortage will end and the prices will level off someday. I just hope my meager stock carries me through to see it without relegating my rifles to 'safe queen' status. To conserve my resources, I have yet to fire any of my 30-06's or 303's etc this season. Instead I'm shooting all BPC because I have enough to last the summer.
I guess I'm fortunate to not be shooting competions where I would need to be shooting more often. In the 70's and 80's my weekend shoots were preceded by one or two nights of practice during the week. I certainly wouldn't be able to keep that pace today!

Something I don't think that has been mentioned is the political invironmment we are living in. I really thought this ammo panic would have died down by now. It hasn't. I think the factors are many. Greed ( I'll sell it and make a big profit). Panic (they are going to ban everything). And that old WWII movie line, "buy it up and beat the hoarders!"

Dean (the other one)

I have never had a problem with folks buying in biulk to save a bit of money. My problem is with the guy who has never bought more than 1 lb of powder in his life but goes out and buys 50 lbs of Bullseye. My problem is with the guy that shoots 200 rounds or less per year and suddenly thinks he needs 25,000 rounds. My problem is with the guy that buys 50,000 small rifle primers and doesn't reload at all... that is what is happening now. Just last week a store in Columbia Mo just got in several hundred boxes of CCI .223. They told me there was a near riot with people that had never purchased from them before wanting to buy every round.

I have 2,000 rounds of 7.62 that I bought when it was cheap because I knew I would use it. I have 2,000 small rifle primers left over that I bought when I owned a registered FA M-16 and was shooting 2-3,000 rounds per year. I gave that rifle to a son that doesn't believe in shooting reloads in a $12,000 gun. I would like to try new loads and new calibers but I can't because some AH out there has it all locked up in his basement

Go ahead and buy a zillion rounds that you will never need or use just because you don't want any body else to have them. Go ahead and preclude new shooters from getting in the sport because you don't give a rats arse about anybody else. You are a brilliant guy and one heck of a lot smarter than me.

I predict that if we do have a flu pandemic, you will watch your kids/grand kids die because somebody just like you is hoarding thousands of doses of vaccine.:bitch::bitch:

Do you remember the last time people did this with primers? I do and when it was over a lot of those same guys were selling their "stash" later for around 1/2 of what the going rate was for primers, in other words they "ate it" big time. Just like the last primer shortage or the gas shortage or you pick one where the speculators bought as much up and tried to make a killing on it this will end and will not be good for them, remember the Hunt brothers and the time they tried to corner the silver market? I remember silver going to 50 dollars per oz. and then all of a sudden they couldn't make the call, bam lost their *** (lots of money) and the silver dropped to almost 6 bucks per oz. Some day this will end and either there will be no ammo or components to get at any price or it will resume as normal and I for one will not be sitting on a ton of that stuff on a bet that I can make a pile of money, it's a 50 50 deal ya pays your quarter and ya takes the chances, win lose or draw.

Todays lunch menu was Rib steak with salt pepper and garlic powder on the BBQ white corn on the cob smothered in real butter scolloped potatoes radishes little green onions and baby carrots with Ranch dressing and a large tumbler of Ice Tea.

From one Veteran to all of the others have a great and thankful day today and remember our Vets that didn't make it home for this day.

Regards

BudT

Maybe we could get the government to distribute ammo in a more socialist manner so some people would quit whinning about not having enough. It's not fair that some people took the initiative and forethought to get out and buy it while the getting was good. You know, the American way.

That feller was a piker.

I've refused to participate in this panic. I've bought a lot of cheap military surplus ammo over the years and continue to use it. I couldn't resist the bargains especially when Century was selling 8 x 57mm for between five and ten cents a round!! I also stocked up on enough bullets, brass, powder, and primers a number of years ago so I can reload if I don't want to use the surplus stuff. I have to agree with Red. Carl

I was given 1000 LP primers from a fellow who "stocked up" during the Clintonista Primer Panic. He had no use for LP primers but he bought a few cases nonetheless. After explaining that I was no longer using my Model 29 "race revolver" he insisted I take a brick because he was getting rid of them. I accepted the gift and stored them to be used later.

This year I'm using reformed CBC brass 24ga shells for both the 450-577MH and 577 Snider. They require LP primers and was happy to have that extra 1000 on hand. I just broke into that brick last month and suddenly I'm having misfires. Turns out the primers had been stored in a damp basement prior to haven been given to me. If it weren't for this recent shortage, I'd have already dumped the remaining 900 into a jar of WD-40 so I could trash them. For now I'm holding on to them, but in the hopes that my old original supply of primers lasts until this fiasco is over.

I can't help but wonder about how much ammo is being stored the same way. Piled in basements or tucked into unheated sheds and garages. After a few seasons of extreme temperature and humidity shifts, that stuff will be about as reliable as 50 year old third world surplus when it finally surfaces.

Ya know the last time we hqd folks stocking up, we had a leftist in the white house. However this time we have a communist. That's a lot more dangerous.

What was the very best definition of a Communist?....."A Socialist in a hurry." Kinda defines Cookoo Banana don't it!

"A man that stands for nothing will fall for anything!" M. Little

Why I bellieve in God. Years ago a friend in the U.K. was in to cowboy reenacting but finding primers for blanks hard to find. I decided to be a good guy and take him some. Got off the plane at Heathrow with two bricks of primers, (1000 large rifle and 1000 large pistol primers!) Now if there wasn't a guardian angel protecting me, how else to you explain my getting that through customs!:D

Couple of years later the same friend was finding it difficult to buy .45LC cases for his reenacting. Sent him three boxes of unprimed brass, which was delivered by TWO POLICE CARS, and THEN they asked for permission to search his house!:eek:

Got a friend who's into Knob Creek stuff - he and his brother bought 650,000
.30 bullets at apop, resold a lot of 'em at a good price( I bought 10,000 myself, I'm such a terrible person !). I have no trouble at all with that. Most of the people at my local range would haveta be arrested if my state had the ridiculous Commie-pinko laws of MA. Forget the griping, justified or not, about hoarding - when they tell you what and how many of anything you can buy with your own damn money, we are no longer free people.

Why is it that those who have stockpiled are so defensive? "Whinning"...."Griping"....."Socialism" etc are immediately the labels they project upon the others who are discussing the facts.

Fact is there IS an ammo and component shortage.
Fact is there are people trying to be first to buy what they can before anyone else might get it.
Fact is there are people sitting on ammo and components now that they will probably never use.
Fact is the prices ARE artificially inflated.
Fact is that even if someone NEEDS any ammo or components they are more scarce than they have ever been.
Fact is there are indeed HOARDERS (not just stockpiling shooters) who are compounding the problem for everyone else. That includes Police depts!

This has all had a profound impact upon the majority of the shooting fraternity. If someone feels justified by having their own personal ammo dump then sobeit. However, don't start labeling and name calling those who have been adversely affected by it all.
If anyone has the right to buy whatever they see then the others surely have a right to openly discuss the reasons their procurements are suddenly more difficult than ever before. There is no double standard. Especially when it comes down to some of the truths behind the matter.

I predict that if we do have a flu pandemic, you will watch your kids/grand kids die because somebody just like you is hoarding thousands of doses of vaccine


Attacking me is one thing, attacking my children and grand children to get to "me" proves the fact that you have lost the argument, you need help Red. Your "prediction" will be and is wrong Red but I guess in your perverted way you would hope for such a thing to be visited on me and for what? A BOX OF BULLETS, that you "thought" you should have got! Under normal conditions RED even in our heated debate on your "percieved" belief that I am a hoarder (evil & bad) which I am not I would sign "Regards" before typing my real name, but not this time. This time you go to hell you BaStARd.



BudT

It looks to me as though this thread, like a few others, has gotten pretty far afield from the original topic. That concerned a man being charged criminally in MA. Like some other threads which degenerated into name calling, we only know half a story to begin with and we all know there are TWO sides to everything. That being the case, I would only say he will have his day in court. As regards the rest, I dont care if anyone stocks up on whatever he can get, but I also remember "hoarding" from WW2, and it was universally frowned upon because it only exacerbated shortages. I dont mind going into a shop and paying more for what I need, but I hate the idea that it isnt there because some greedy bas---d who never reloaded a round and doesnt shoot very much has much more than he could ever use "stockpiled".

Right now there is a huge increase in the demand for ammo, and components to make ammo. Industry can do what they can to increase supply to meet demand, but they know that this will be a temporary phenomenon. A large part of the demand isn't from the usual gun enthusiast or reloader, but from people that are scared and have been scared into thinking that a revolution or outright banning is eminent, or at least possible.
The emotion behind this phenominon is troubleing. Because of it, a few will behave in irrational ways that hurt the entire gun owning community. (shootings)
The rush to buy reloading components will eventually decrease the demand as consumers hold enormous surplusses of non degrading comodities.
The prices will fall to the point that a profit cannot be made and supply will be curtailed. By the time these suppliers can increase the capacity to meet the demand, they could be behind the curve and lose when demand stabilizes. Expanding to meet demand is very risky.
Greed is not the emotion behind the demand for components. The emotion is fear. If you were dieing of thirst in the desert, you would pay a solid gold bar for a gallon of water. There are no unfair prices, any more than there are preditory lenders. If you are willing to pay 10 cent per primer you will buy them just like the gallon of water for a gold bar. The consumer pays for his fear not the retailer. Just for grins substitute the words primers, powder, and bullets with "affordable housing", "health care", and "opprotunity" in your arguments, and you will find out that you are really a liberal that doesn't like free interprise because of it's unfairness in light of your emotions.

Normaly I don't bother chasing down ammo, BUT WHEN was the last time anyone saw piles of Greek (HXP) .303 ammo for sale? Sorry guys, but I buy it whenever I see it.!!!!!! If that upsets you, tough! I have LOTS of rifles in that calibre.

I guess Im an old time horder at least with primers. I was bit so bad during the clinton primer fiasco that I had to beg buddies to sell me a hundred. I am and have been a avid reloader. Mainly because I wanted to shoot obsolete military calibers. At that time, I bought by the 200 at the local shop.(I was a cheap skate) That experience made me so mad that I said never again. I buy in multiple case lots so I can weather any crazyness. like whats going on right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Sukey

Normaly I don't bother chasing down ammo, BUT WHEN was the last time anyone saw piles of Greek (HXP) .303 ammo for sale? Sorry guys, but I buy it whenever I see it.!!!!!! If that upsets you, tough! I have LOTS of rifles in that calibre.

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Hey John....who's got piles of HXP .303? If you know where some is....I'll do a little "hoarding" myself!

If I owned hungry rock-n-roll toys I'd have had a few cases of that HXP 303 myself. That's not hoarding. That's having just enough to get by. LOL

How 'bout substituting "money" ? Shame on all the people/companies that saved for the lean times. We'll show those "hoarders", we'll just take it away from 'em and redistribute it. Guess you can do the same with primers/powder/etc. Call it a shooter's bailout.

Liberals aren't mindless, they are progressing toward their goal.
Conservatives are letting them do so with little interference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Kepler

Hey John....who's got piles of HXP .303? If you know where some is....I'll do a little "hoarding" myself!

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If I knew where some HXP was, I would be on it in a flash:D Apparently only the occasional bandoleer surfaces these days.

Went to the gun show last weekend and it was a waste of time. One thing noted was that the ammo guy was NOT sold out by the afternoon. I would guess the prices are getting a bit too much even for the desperate.

Fortunately the vickers can use 8mm, 7.62x54R, and .303. So when I take it out once in a great while, it gets fed the off brand stuff.

Something just clicked. The press said the guy had 30,000 "Bullets"!!!!!
Now just how dangerous are 30,000 bulets. Its not like he had 30,000 rounds of ammunition, just bullets. That must be true cause it was in the newspaper and we KNOW the press ALWAYS is accurate!:madsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Sukey

Something just clicked. The press said the guy had 30,000 "Bullets"!!!!!
Now just how dangerous are 30,000 bulets. Its not like he had 30,000 rounds of ammunition, just bullets. That must be true cause it was in the newspaper and we KNOW the press ALWAYS is accurate!:madsmile:

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FYI. Bullets are considered ammunition in Massachusetts, as I noted in my previous post, and you need a permit to possess ammunition. Empty shell casings are considered ammunition also.

If you read the Chicago code carefully, those bullets are considered a firearm and he could have been arrested for 30k counts of possession of an unregistered weapon there.
Of course if he were already a previously convicted felon, Chicago code wouldn't apply (due to 5th Amendment protections) since convicted felons aren't allowed to register.