Mum

My dad was on a ship in WW2 that was to invade japan and on the way they dropped the bomb and the war ended. He ended up in japan off loading ships, he ran a duck. Any way he brought home a type 99 rifle. I have the rifle and the paper work that let him bring it home. The mum has been ground off. He said he knows nothing about grinding off the mum. Was the mum ground off by him? the u.s. or did he find it that way? Also why did they grind it off. He also brought home a bayonet that I was told is worth more than the rifle. I have also been told the paper work to bring the rifle home is worth more than the rifle. Thanks for any info.

The mums were ground off by the Japanese. Their idea was that if their weapons were going to be captured the national symbol (the chrysanthemum) was not going to be captured with them.

Generally, battlefield rifles that were captured war souvenirs have the mum. Surrendered rifles do not.

I would say the papers are not worth anything without the rifle, they do increase value of rifle. Bayonets can be worth up to 150, maybe 200 if a rare model. Most rifles would be worth more.

Sounds like you are talking to a "know it all".

The vast majority of "captured" and "bring back" Japanese rifles came out of depots in Japan after the war. One of the concessions made to prevent unnecessary trouble was that the depot workers were allowed to grind off or deface the "mum", which was the emperor's personal crest, before surrendering the rifles.

This has become well known, and many fanciful stories have been told to "explain" how a rifle that a relative "captured in hand-to-hand combat" has a ground crest.

One of the best I heard was that the rifle had a crest when it was brought back, but after the war, the FBI came and took the rifle away and when the vet got it back the crest was ground off. Supposedly this was at the order of Pres. Truman, who personally kept track of every weapon brought back by American GI's, as part of a Democratic gun control scheme!!! Wow! And he had time to be a pretty fair president, too.

Jim

The rifle I have was found laying in a field. Dad said it's just the way he found it.

Does the paperwork have the rifles serial number on it? Also I would suggest having your dad or you write up a bit of history on the rifle and linking the paperwork to it even if the serial number is not listed.
There are alot of very convincing fake papers out there and it used to be that rifles with bring back papers added a considerable premium to it's value but not so much any more, unless the paperwork is positively linked to the rifle via documention.
It's pretty well understood that any rifle with a ground MUM is a bringback, paperwork or not.
The rifles still having the Mum with "real" paperwork dated before the end of the war are the ones that will bring a real premium as they are considered battle field bringbacks. Ray

A serious collector of WWII memorabilia recently told me hew has heard the stories change as the age of those vets got older. In the late 40's & early 50's, guys would brag about how they acquired a trophy in explicit, gory detail. As guys got older, the bring-backs all seem to have been acquired laying in a field or won in card game.

Can't say I can blame a guy -- who wants to remember unpleasant stuff like that in your old age.

My recently deceased neighbor was one of the first Americans to set foot into Japan at the end of the war. He was with the Navy and his ship was among the first to anchor in Tokyo habor. Their first duty was to escort Army troops and set up security (ie. see that the planes at nearby airfields were disabled etc.)
One of the things they did was to secure a Jap arsenal. When they first entered the arsenal they found women working feverishly at bench grinders where they were grinding the mum off of new rifles. There were other women bringing crates of rifles to the grinding area. Kids were dragging the altered rifles and empty crates outside the building and dumping them off the loading dock.
Recognizing a chance to make a buck, my neighbor and his fellows "expropriated" a large number of crated rifles and trucked them down to the harbor. There they loaded those little navy "runabouts" with rifle crates to the point that they nearly sank. they then proceeded to go from ship to ship selling rifles. Crates were dumped overboard as they were emptied. I believe that $40 was the going price per rifle. It was a sellers' market.
He did recall that the Japs put up a small fuss about taking the crated rifles.
He didn't know how many rifles were sold but recalled that the harbor was awash in floating rifle crates. After about a week of selling they were ordered to stop. It's my understanding that orders were soon issued stating that the "mum" on any captured "prize of war" in the hands of troops was to be defaced. Commanding officers were suppose to see that this was done but apparently the order was all but ignored.

The "mum" (Chrysanteum) is the personal family crest of the Emperor of Japan. It was HIS property, not Japan's. I have heard MacArthur ordered the mum removed so as not to offend the Emperor. Lots of stories around, not sure which to believe.

The more logical version is that MacArthur ALLOWED (not ordered) the "mum" to be defaced before rifles were surrendered. While the policy was questioned by some of the hard line types ("kill all the yellow SOB's"), the U.S. bent over backward to keep the Emperor out of the picture in regard to war crimes, responsibility, etc. They were unsure of how the Japanese people would react if the Emperor were to be arrested or brought to trial. So concessions were made, both large (allowing the Emperor to remain on the throne) and small (like removal of the "mum") rather than take a chance on a general uprising that could have resulted in countless deaths and injuries on both sides.

Jim

MacArthur finaly found the position he had been looking for in his military career, SHOGUN!

I wouldn't ask the Marines what their opinion of MacArthur was.

One reason why I liked Harry Truman, he FIRED MacArthur, who forgot WHO he was working for.

I think Mac got a little too big for his britches! He was a huge showman and it bled over into everything he did. Mac did do some great things during the war though, mainly his showmanship!

I don't know if the facts about that firing will ever come out fully, but any dispute over tactics was minor and an excuse. The fact is that MacArthur took some actions that were totally out of line and could have gotten the U.S. into WWIII, resulting in millions of deaths in a nuclear holocaust. Truman was absolutely correct and made sure that the right people were told just enough of the truth that MacArthur had no chance of being nominated or elected to anything.

Jim

Hey, guys,

I'm glad I'm not the only skeptic about the cult of Mac. It's a little bit of a drift from the original topic, however.

Be that as it may, I shudder to think what would have happened if he had been the Republican nominee in '52 instead of Ike. He was quite popular, especially with the China lobby and the group that wanted send American troops in to back up Chiang Kai-shek's return to power.

I give him credit for the Inchon landing and the rout of the DRK armies ... don't know how much of that credit rightly belongs to him, but it turned out OK. It could easily have been a disaster.

I tend to the MacArthur was a dangerous egomaniac side of things, but will give him credit for smoothly transitioning Japan's war criminals and profiteers into the movers and shakers of the Japanese economic miracle. For not being such a prude that he couldn't see the value of keeping the Yakuza around. For insisting that ground troops clear and hold the islands from New Guinea through the Solomons to the Philippines. The man was on a mission.

Just the mention of his name still can stir up strong emotions, what, 60 years after the events. You can get into a fight over him to this day!

jn

Mac did a poor job of recognizing the Chinese Army in Korea days before the huge Chinese invasion. Many Chinese deserted over to the US Army and were quickly identified as Chinese troops. Mac refused to believe this and no one was ready for over a million Chinese infantry. He deserved to be canned, he earned it.

Steve,

I had forgotten that one. He was feeling so great about mopping up the floor with the DRKs, he never realized that the approach of a foreign, warring army to its borders just might bring China into the fight.

In former years he was a hero to a lot of people, and could walk into any American Legion hall in the country and never pay for food or drink. My own thought is we've had generals who understood war in Asia a lot better than Mac. Vinegar Joe STilwell is one, unfortunately he was unavailable for Korean service.

As for Mac and WWII, my own thought is that the Philippines could have been bypassed entirely, with much saving of lives and treasure. The more Japanese forces sitting there without logistic support and subject to daily air-raids, the better. We needed the Marianas. We didn't need the Philippines.

jn

He had financial interests in the Philippanes, and several business investments. What's a few US casalities as long as he could get back to those interests so he could regain some of his losses, Ray

I know MacArthur had investments in the Philippines, but I really can't see that he went back solely on that account. We had to reclaim the country one way or another, and as soon as possible; we owed the Phillipine people that much. Of course, Mac messed up in the first place; he knew about Pearl Harbor hours before the first Japanese attacks on the Philippines, yet he failed to maintain proper aerial recon and let his air force be destroyed on the ground. I suspect he was another one of the many officers who believed in white superiority and just couldn't believe the Japanese were capable of doing what they did.

Jim

Jim, guys,

This topic probably belongs on the gun talk list where more people will see it. I'm not so cynical I would believe an American military man would waste men just 'cause of his investments, but I do think Mac wasted men's lives, and it was mainly to satisfy his own ego, and his many delusions about the strategic importance of the Philippines and the general inferiority of brown-skinned people. I don't know which is worse.

The Mac I know and love is the man who sent horse soldiers in to break up the WWI veterans' bonus march and tent city. My parents talked about that one when I was a kid 20 years after the fact, and the shame of it all.

I'm ready to let Mac RIP. David Hackworth warned us about the modern equivalents - he called them the "perfumed princes" - who are getting our servicemen and -women killed now. I don't know much about this guy McChrystal. I hope he reads history and has the sense to respect his enemy.

jn

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Originally Posted by rayg

He had financial interests in the Philippanes, and several business investments. What's a few US casalities as long as he could get back to those interests so he could regain some of his losses, Ray

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Ok, as I understand he had some pretty substantal investments in the PI and I can't believe that didn't pay a part in the back of his mind in pushing for the taking back of the PI instead of other recommened plans that may have reduced casaulaties. I'm not saying it was the only priority but don't forget, Mac was all about himself. Anyway, just my opinion that may not be worth anything anyway, :dunno: Ray

There are a lot of stories about grinding the mums. One I heard and sounds plausible is that the "Mums" weren't ground until it was negotiated with the Americans. Many of the rifles retained the mums when they were reissued to the Japanese home security forces and police. When the rifles were to be exported out of Japan, either as surplus or as in many cases when they were converted to 30-06 and sent to Korea.
China was making Type 99 rifles in Manchuria where the Japanese factories had been left intact. The Chinese made them in 7.92x57. I would like to get one of those but in Canada they are non existent. They definitely wouldn't have "Mums".

Other countries ground off the crests on their rifles as well. Romania, Argentina and Latvia to name a few. It isn't that uncommon. To save "face" for the emperor is as good a story as any and I won't deny it's credibility as I have no direct knowledge. I did talk to an old, now deceased armorer that spent some time in Japan, during the first months of occupation. He told me there were weapons all over the place. Most were destroyed in one manner or another and the bolts were usually missing. Bayonets, were bent etc. The Japanese, stacked and burned their weapons as well. He also said there were thousands of them just laying around, where they had been dropped, when the soldiers were told to surrender. The one thing he did notice, was a complete lack of ammunition. I guess, they had either thrown it away or used it up. There were piles upon piles of hand grenades and helmets as well. Heavier guns like machine guns were just left in their emplacements along with their accessories and many other dropped weapons. He also mentioned warehouses of equipment. Very little food but lots of uniforms and kit. He did mention that they hired Japanese labor to unpack new rifles and deface the crests. They also were told to do the same with gathered rifles. For some reason, pistols and bayonets didn't need to be defaced. Neither were uniforms, helmets, buttons, machine guns, ships, submarines or aircraft. Why not? I couldn't tell you. So many secrets die and the truth is often replaced with fantasy.
I like the story of saving face for the emperor. It's simple and easy as well as nostalgic. :surrender:

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Originally Posted by 2571

A serious collector of WWII memorabilia recently told me hew has heard the stories change as the age of those vets got older. In the late 40's & early 50's, guys would brag about how they acquired a trophy in explicit, gory detail. As guys got older, the bring-backs all seem to have been acquired laying in a field or won in card game.

Can't say I can blame a guy -- who wants to remember unpleasant stuff like that in your old age.

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Real vet story.
I met a WW2 vet while delivering prescriptions while in college. We would visit a bit each time I delivered. WW2 came up and he asked if I would stay a few min. and he would show me somthing. He got the key to his stor room and inside opened a locker.
He pulled out a rifle a Nambu ,map and sword and told me the story of how he came by the items as a Pathfinder in the pacific. If I any doubts about the story they wer dispelled when he lifted his pant leg and showed me the scar left by the sword. Having gotten to know this gentelman over several years I have no doubts his story was true. He had no children and I often wonder if he shared the story with whoever he passed the items to. Nice fellow. I miss him.