I encountered an interesting rifle today at the range. It was a SMLE that had been converted to .22 cal for the British government by a contractor. Now, being a Garand guy, that was new to me, but probably old to you guys, no?
Bob
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I encountered an interesting rifle today at the range. It was a SMLE that had been converted to .22 cal for the British government by a contractor. Now, being a Garand guy, that was new to me, but probably old to you guys, no?
Bob
I've got one, plus several other purpose built Lee Enfields in .22. Really fun to shoot, and ammo is still cheap......when you can find it. I NEVER thought I'd see the day when .22lr was not available.:mad:
SMLE No's 7,8,9 were purpose built .22Lr trainers. Very nice...
The New Zeland military just auctioned off about 60 odd cadet rifles for price from 300-1200NZ each.
I have a Enfield 1915 22 SMLE IV. in .22Lr. Same same as No1 III except for the barrel and bolt head. Mine even has the cutoff and volley sights.
Nice change when you can by 525 round for less than $20. rather than $30 for 25
I believe 22 Enfields are some of the best fun you can have with your clothes on. I have four, SMLE Pattern 1914, SMLE No2 Mark IV, No8 and Brit No7.
It was just wild to see this big guy spitting out little cracks instead of big barks. He had it on the100 yard range and it seemed to be great for target plinkage!
Bob
Who was the contractor for this .22?
There were a number of private companies that converted them for the government, but there were also many gunmakers who made them for commercial sale---the latter were purpose-built and not conversions.
Has anyone considered a sub calibre insert along the lines of the barrel insert and bolt? I was thinking of something along the lines of the old sub cal adaptor used in the FN FAL/L1A1 rifle
he quoted a two-name name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jc5
Bob
Parker Hale ???????Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack
I think that was the name!
Bob, you could wind up being a Lee Enfield guy too if you're not careful!
Peter, newly made sub-caliber inserts along the lines of the Morris aiming tube were available here some years ago. The quality was not top notch and they got mixed reviews. Mine was not accurate at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve H. in N.Y.
Have one of those inserts also. Like yours, not very accurate. Came with its own complete bolt.
Seems To be Many 22 Cal Lee Enfields.
http://www.enfield-stuff.com/regimen...ners/index.htm
Enfield Smallbore (.22 Rimfire) Trainers
I didn't pay any attention to the .22 trainers until I stumbled upon one that was regimentally marked. I took it out to the range - and discovered that it was a LOT of fun to shoot. Next thing I knew I was chasing regimentally marked trainers...and along the way I discovered that there were quite a few variations of rifles and marks, spread among three distinct families. A few notes:
As early as 1883 the British Army was experimenting with ways to adapt service rifles to accommodate the .22 rimfire round for marksmanship practice. After the adoption of the Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield (SMLE) rifle in 1902, there was a need for a training rifle to conform as closely as possible to the new SMLE configuration. The simplest (and cheapest) solution was simply to rebuild older rifles into a new pattern of .22 rimfire trainers, a practice that continued until 1944, when the first purpose built .22 trainer - the Canadian No.7 - was adopted for service. A brief review of the SMLE family of trainers:
.22 SHORT RIFLE MK III
Approved 9th August 1912 (LoC 16291) for Land Service, this rifle was made up from Converted Mk II and Mk II* SMLE rifles (which were themselves either "long" Lee-Metford or "long" Lee-Enfields converted to "short" Lees). About 11,000 conversions were done by BSA, LSA and RSAF Enfield.
.22 RF PATTERN 1914 SHORT RIFLE No. 1
A wartime trainer approved 24th May 1915 (LoC 17320) for Land Service, this rifle was also made up from Converted Mk II and Mk II* SMLE rifles (see above) by boring out the .303 barrel and inserting a .22 caliber liner inside the barrel. Conversions were done by A.G. Parker & Co. Ltd. and Wesley Richards & Co. About 427 conversions reported.
.22 RF PATTERN 1914 SHORT RIFLE No. 2
Approved 28th April 1916 (LoC 17755) for Land Service, this is the first rifle made from up from an original SMLE Mk III. Again, the .303 barrel was bored out and a .22 caliber liner inserted. Conversions were done by A.G. Parker & Co. Ltd. and Wesley Richards & Co. Some 1,743 conversions reported.
.22 RF SHORT RIFLE PATTERN 1918
Approved 10th July 1918 (LoC 21675) for Land Service, this rifle is unique in that it used a dummy .303 cartridge as a holder or conveyor for the .22 rimfire cartridge. The .22 barrel liner was soldered into place after the chamber. About 975 conversions done by W.W. Greener Co.
.22 SHORT RIFLE Mk IV
Approved 19th November 1921 (LoC 24909) for Land Service, this rifle starts out with a used SMLE Mk III or Mk III* (like the 1914 Short Rifle No. 2, above) but uses a solid, not tubed, barrel. Total number of conversions done by RSAF Enfield unknown.
RIFLE No.2 Mk IV*
Same rifle as above; just a change in nomenclature adopted in 1926. This rifle was the principal trainer for the next thirty years and was widely produced by in Britain, Australia and India. Issued in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Ireland and India, a variety of issue and ownership marks can be found on these rifles. At least 30,000 conversions made by the various factories.
The next grouping consists of trainers from the Rifle No.4 family of rifles:
RIFLE C No.7 Mk I
The first Enfield built from the ground up as a .22 trainer and not as a conversion or retro-fitting of an earlier rifle - albeit built on a No.4 body and intended to mirror the Rifle No.4 as closely as possible. About 20,000 made at Longbranch, Ontario 1944 - 1950's. Unknown number of wooden transit chests also produced.
RIFLE No.7 Mk I
Although a No.7 Mk I, the British version is very different from it's Canadian counterpart (above). This rifle was a conversion of an existing No.4 and is interesting in that a BSA five-round commercial .22 magazine was welded into a SMLE Mk III* magazine to produce the only Enfield .22 repeater. These rifles were a special contract and produced exclusively for the Royal Air Force (RAF) in 1948. Total production 2,500.
RIFLE No.8 Mk I
An interesting hybrid, a .22 caliber trainer intended to be also be used in smallbore rifle competitions, this rifle was introduced in the late 1940's. About 15,000 produced at Fazakerley. Another 2,000 were produced by BSA Shirley in the 1950's specifically for New Zealand.
RIFLE No.9 Mk I
The last of the .22's, these are No.4 rifles sleeved in a manner similar to the WWI Pattern 1914 Short Rifle No. 1 (above). The work was done by Parker Hale in Birmingham 1956 - 1960. 3,000 rifles made specifically for the Royal Navy.
This list is not all-inclusive. The Long Lee family of .22 trainers is not included, nor are any of the .22 trials rifles. For books and other reference materials on these and related topics, pop over to the Tools section of the website.
I know. Scary. Oh, andQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve H. in N.Y.
"None shall pass!"
:lol:
Bob
Many unserviceable .303 barrels were recycled by boring out and lining them to .22. I've got one P-H did in 1948
Anyone know where you can get replacement .22 magazines for the No. 7 (British)? You know, the little mag that was inserted/welded into the regular mag.
On the shelf right next to the budgies teeth;)
I believe the website had something about "Unobtanium"
Yeah, that's kinda what I thought the response would be.:crying:
I have both the No.2Mk4* built 7/45 on a 1944 Lithgow NoIII* action and an insert for a standard SMLE NoIII*
I also have a 1941 .303 Lithgow to match it.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif[/IMG]
I believe the liner kit was made for Numrich in the 80's. That is where I've seen them advertized. This is the kit below. It came in the wooden tray.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif[/IMG]
That's the sort of thing I was thinking about N64Atlas. Any good?
And next.... is the N64Atlas anything to do with Norton Atlas?
Peter Laidler. Norton Commando 750
Well I know a guy whose got some and selling at £80 each.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota Joe
I was looking at buying a complete sportsman 5 rifle (with magazine) scrapping the rifle and keeping the magazine. The complete rifles are fetching about £16 - £25 each at an auction I frequent.
US$1.5 = GB pound £1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Hey, now that would be an interesting addition to my SAF target rifle! I wonder who I'd have to kill to get one of those! :madsmile:
Something that hasn't been said here about the trainers... When WW1 broke out, there was a perceived shortage of trainers so the W^D contracted out the conversion of older models and previously converted rifles to .22 calibre. Contracting the work achieved several things, firstly so as not to tie up RSAF and major military contractors production lines at a time when they were trying to meet increased demands for front line weapons. It also helped keep a few firms afloat as some were already in financial trouble in 1915- Westley Richards for one was on the brink of closure (documented on their website). It also ended up with some companies, AJ Parker and later Parker Hale (not the same group- there were a couple of "divisions" in the Parker family in the trade which had gone their seperate ways by this time- details available through google) thriving on converting and modifying rifles for various target shooting groups.
There were no purpose built .22 trainers untill much later on as demostrated earlier in the thread. Although the amount and type of markings varied a lot, a rifle with a 1916 build date and marked No2 MkIV would have been a much later conversion, possibly as late as the 1950's (working from memory here, please correct me if I stuff it up!)
Correct me if I'm wrong Son, but I remember L1A1 sub calibre adaptors being in service when I was in Australia. Is this what you need for your SAF target rifle? Will the SAF target rifle take one?
Peter, I haven't been "in the game" that long- but assume they would have used them. I'll ask the Tiffy on Monday.
I hadn't even thought about a sub cal adaptor. Although I have to admit it would be a very desirable addition as long as it didn't hurt the rifle
The barrel looks to be the heavier L2A1 barrel without the flash eliminator. Still only 21 inches long, and would have to be single loaded- no magazine.
Peter:
Though I have had this adaptor for a few years, I have never shot it. It wouldn't fit the bore of my Lithgow, so I bought an Ishapor No1 MkIII* that had a bad bolt. I've yet to take it to the range. Too many 22 trainers, so little time :^)
As to the follow up question n64Atlas means 1964 Norton Atlas 750
Sub caliber insert,.. Numrich made the famous '03, '03A3 unit back in the 60s. They also made one for the SMLE. It consists of a tube barrel insert, with nut at muzzle, and a complete bolt with .22 cal. bolt head. I have one stashed away somewhere.
I now see n64atlas' postings... I didn't even see page 2 &3 until after I posted...sorry! My .22 conversion unit is just like his.
The BSA No7 magazine saga is a bit like the L1A1 sub-calibre magazine too. Millions of the large outers, plently/sufficient (?) of the .22" inserts but none of the interface pressings to mate the two together.
Alan......... is the £80 you're talking of the complete No7 magazine or just the little sportsman 5 insert part? Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh!
Thats what I said (or very similar anyway) - no its just the sportsman 5 mag that inserts into the pressing / outer magazine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Repeat - inner magazine ONLY !!!
I often wonder what happened to the .22 calibre adapters for the L1A1. Did they scrap them along wih the rifles?
Other than the one I have, I have never seen any others on offer.
Oh while I am at it, can somebody explain to me how the British came to the definition of a "lethal barrel":rolleyes:
It's not a lethal barrel, it's a lethal, barrelled weapon. That means that it is a lethal weapon that has a barrel. A bit like a PIAT........... that hasn't got a barrel. Don't ask us, we're all confused!
Hundreds of the sub cal adaptors were fixed permanently into the actual L1A1 rifles due to the fact that once the barrel bulged, it was impossible to remove it from the rifle so the whole kit stayed put! Another rifle was demanded to replace the now fixed .22" version. The now permanent .22" rifle was marked with a painted red band around the muzzle and stayed as a .22.
This was the only way that you could obtain one of the storeage boxes for the kits because the box was a NP (Not provisioned) part for some reason and it was only when the barrel was bulged into the rifle that the sub cal assembly moved from the box to the rifle...... leaving the box redundant.
When the L1A1 was withdrawn, hundreds of .22" L1A1;s remained behind for many, many years until they went too. To the great scrap yard in the sky. The H&K made L1A1 kits were identical to the H&K FN variant except for the magazine cases. The UK MoD .22" magazines were made heavier to replicace a filled 7.62mm magazine. However, the recoil of the .22" just didn't quite replicate the recoil of its bigger brother, especially while wearing only a thin shirt or no shirt at all.
There seems to be plenty of .22" sub cal kits around but, alas, no magazines, even the FN type.
Maybe an article about the sub cal kit wouldn't go amiss. So, to start it off. I know we had them in Australia but can't recall having them in NZ. The first question is this. Did you have them in NZ? Did you have them in Canada?
You would have to be mad to buy it, but Guncity has a L12A1 barrel, breech assembly and one magazine for NZ$1500.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son
L1A1 subbies were around in Australia still in Use by cadet units in the late 80's - mid 90's when I was involved in training the little bastards. Still about 40% went on to joining the reserves or full time forces, including some in the army's teeth units.
With the gun laws changing many cadet units topped using firearms altogether as a PR exercise. Still my cadet unit had around 250 of the SLR .22 conversions and many more in the racks that just sat there.
They probably all ended up in the scrap heap as they couldn't be sold to the public for being semiautomatics. Wish I had one now. Excellent for knocking off rabbits
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f90ef2_b-1.jpg
Picked up this L1A1 insert kit from a friend in Canada.
Have yet to try it out. It has never been used.
Wow....., even I haven't seen a brand new one. Seen a million old tatty ones ............
Very nice British issue L12A1 conversion kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by jona
Here's the Canadian version of the L12A1 conversion kit (sorry I can't remember who these pics belong to).
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Why 'Canadian' rather then 'British' check out the parts listing, the Canadian's have given a couple of components Canadian NSN's.
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Here's the typical parts listing for the British kits.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...echBlock-1.jpg
Gentlemen, these pictures of pristine kits are great information for collectors. my eyes will be peeled in future for anything resembling them at a gun show.
I had no idea what to expect
What to expect.............. to pay anywhere between USD$1200 - $1800 for a set. :yikes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Amatikulu
nzl1a1collector:
All were from H & K, so do not think there is any difference between British or Canadian issue.
According to the parts lists, the Canadian barrel is different (Canadian made, 21-864-5570), as is the box (again, Canadian made 21-864-5569) Whereas the UK/Australian/NZ(?) kits are all from H&K with German 12 NATO codes, such as 12-147-6955 for the H&K barrel.
Strange really because the case, albeit unpainted, looks the same and by definition, the barrels MUST be the same!
All the kits were made by H&K originally for the FAL Rifle (metric magazines) but a number were converted with inch magazines and designated L12A1.
The Canadians called the kit:-
1005-21-864-5568 (also 6920-21-864-5568)
ADAPTER, sub-calibre, 7.62 mm, C1A1
The Poms/Aussies/Kiwis called the kit:-
6920-12-147-6954
CONVERSION KIT, 7.62 mm rifle, 0.22 in calibre, L12A1
The Canadian's redesignated a number of components, weather they were actually made in Canada is uncertain they might of just been 'sourced' through Canada, hence the designation change.
The NSN make-up is quite strict and the nationality designator, such as 99 or 13 or 21 or 12 etc indicates Country of origin. This would indicate that the origin of the Canadian barrel and box is Canada.
However, errors have occurred, especially with nations that possessed 7.62 and .303 Brens....., who would put their own originator country by the part.
The L12 sub cal kit boxes were VERY hard to acquire and never available as a spare part. As I mentioned earlier,in the UK, the only way one would be available was when the barrel bulged into and stayed in the rifle.
Good thread and loads of useful info is coming out here. Maybe it should be put into the FAL forum.
Talking of which, there is a .22" Imbel FAL, based on the FN but manufactured as a .22" rifle. Do any of the internal parts or magazines interchange with the L12 sub-calibre kit?
If it is only the insert that you are looking for, and you already have the .303 magazine shell with the plate rivetted in to take the insert, then the little 5 round magazine was taken from the standard BSA Sportsman .22RF rifle and modified, by dint of re-profiling the side-plates with a small cut-out each side, and inverting the release latch so that it was at the top of the magazine instead of the bottom. This simple alteration provided BSA, who manufactured the British No.7 rifle, with an economical answer to the supply of just 2,500 mag-inserts for the R.A.F. contract. The reversal of the latch permitted insertion and removal from above, rather than below as in the sporter.
The only problem is that you may have to purchase a complete BSA Sportsman to get the magazine; but a well-used example is comparatively cheap when you consider the intrinsic value of a complete and operative No.7 rifle. If you are lucky, you may find one of these magazines in a trader's box of bits at an arms fair.
Sadly, yes, the original special outer .303 magazine shells are hen's teeth, and, if you can find one, may command as much money as an entire Lee-Enfield No.4 rifle.
To see more of the rifle and magazine just type "Lee-Enfield Rifle No.7" into Google. When you eventually get to the bottom of the page you will find detail of the insert.
Hope that helps.
A No7 (BSA) .22 magazine insert alongside a standard BSA 'Sportsman 5' .22 magazine.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00064-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00094-1.jpg
Bob, I know exactly what you're saying about the .22 trainers turning heads at the range. My favorite is the Brit. No.7Mk.1 which looks exactly like a full bore No.4 and has a five shot magazine. Rapid fire with one of those really gets the heads turning. They're all so heavy that you can't help but shoot well too, even with cheap ammo. Brian
I've got a spare bolt assembly and barrel insert in new condition. Anyone got a spare magazine case? I have spare inserts. I also have a complete boxed unit for the FAL purchased at a show several years ago and one for the L1A1/C1A1, purchased in Canada. Both are used but not abused and great fun to shoot.
There's a fantastic opportunity for anyone on that side of the pond that owns an L1A1. I don't remember the last time I ever saw a sub calibre kit offered for sale - even a kit less the magazines!