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Looking for IWS mount to complete my L42A1 CES. Will have a great home in humidity control vault and will only be displayed at the finest shows. My lonely L42A1 longs for completion and only a B1/1005-99-964-3254 Mount, Image Intensified Sight, L5A1 can help. Past background is not important. Please email rodsuebo@aol.com Thanks Rod in NC
Hold your horses Air Can and all the others looking for these mounts. Exact repros are being finished as we speak by an enterprising lad in Canada
I found mine some years ago, quite pricey. Now, all I want is the IWS scope. Also quite pricey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Talking of IIW (or IWS) night sights, has anyone actually GOT one of them?
Remember that they are also known commercially as the RANK-PULLIN SS-20 night vision device. So bear this in view if you are looking.
Additionally, remember that some were sold without the glass etched reticle plate so that they could be used as observation devices but not as actual rifle sights. This was because some countries didn't want the populace to have such things. The actual casing was the same, but with the holes for the zeroing adjusters blanked off with screw-in inserts. If you do see one, grab hold of it even if it hasn't got the reticle and zeroing adjusters because replica/look-a-like adjusters are simple to make from stock hex. bar. I'll lend you an example if you find one........ In fact, it'd be simplicity itself to make originals. I don't know hoe you'd go about the reticle plate but I bet that there is someone on the forum who could make them!
Not sure, but I may have one. Looks a lot like an U.S. A/N PVS-1 but not quite. Not a ID on it at all! Anyone with a good picture of an IWS? All I've seen have been in Jane's Infantry Weapons.
Put a pic on here and I'll tell you if you have. No pic, no tell!
There are a few pics of a UK MoD IIW sight on this forum somewhere
Hows this ?Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/06/iws-1.jpg
Well, if thats an IIW, thats not what I have either. I don't have a digital camera (or even a computer at the house) so pics are a bit of a problem w/o a friend's assist. Last time we tried to post pics he didn't have authorization or some such from the site.
Just use the comuter that you are putting this note ON with to look at the pictures I put on several months ago. THAT is a UK MoD IIW sight.
Top Australian L1A1 fitted with the PVS-2
Bottom British BSA L1A1 fitted with the IWS
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2IWSL1A1-1.jpg
L1A1 fitted with L7 GPMG Bipod and IWS
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Top American AN/PVS-2
Bottom American AN/PVS-4
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...s_covers-1.jpg
Dose anyone have one of these British Infra-Red sights for sale?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...RedSight-1.jpg
Great pics L1A1Dude,
Ref the AN/PVS-4 in the last pic, was that an issue night site for the L1A1?
Thanks
My drama is that I've not much time to go look about. Come here during breaks and mealtime and then jump back off.
The trouble with Infra Red is that if you can see him, while wearing your IR goggles........., guess who HE can see, while he's wearing HIS!
On our old Centurions, we had a xxxxing big IR light on the turret. And the enemy must have known that 1 metre below this was a juicy big twenty ton turret, full of combustable ready-to-use ammo, just waiting for a HESH round.
Give me a passive (No light source needed) IIW any day!
Regarding NZL1A1collectors IR light on the L1A1 rifle. I can imagine that the top cover would last about 2 rounds given the recoil forces applied to the bracket by the weight of the recoiling sight. I bet the little Jock shooting it wasn't a happy little rabbit!
The AN/PVS-4 was used with Australian and New Zealand Armies, not sure if anyone else used it with the FAL/L1A1 rifles. It was replaced by the CWS Kite sight family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ball Bag
IWS bracket reproductions are now completed and awaiting parkerizing and painting. I've PM'd the moderators about listing them here, so when I get the go ahead full details will be posted.
Ad now posted: Military Surplus Collectors Forums
Are the IWS bracket reproductions you make marked in some way or will we see them passed off as originals?
..MJ..
NZL1A1 collector, I wonder of you'd be so kind as to elaborate on the strange side mounted sling swivels fitted to the black plastic stocked L1A1 in your picture.
I'm sure they'd be of interest to the FN FAL blokes too. As a matter of interest, were we the only people to use them?
I'll second the question MJ, as the originals, oddly enough, bore no markings at all... I can see where this going to lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1
Terry
The simple answer is stamp "L42 IWS" on them. As pointed out by Terry the original mountings don't have, or have very few markings on them. There certainly isn't anything on them denoting the weapon they should be used with.
This would clearly indicate to the knowledgeable that it isn't an original L42 mount you could also put "L42IWS09" if you wanted a date.
Peter, I'll sort out a reply about the items you mentioned.
You don't need to mark them. The answer is in the paint. Just use a dob of enamel paint solvent on the modern repro. If the paint comes off, then it's a repop. If the paint remains, then its spirit based, cured sunkorite.
On the other hand, if they are perfect, do we need to know? Maybe we can start a bit of a discussion. While I don't know or care much what the price of an original is, the price of the exact repops has effectively ensured that the prices will remain stable. And, if, as e now know, he's had them made to the original drawings, that should be good enough. And anyway, there's only going to be a demand for 1000 or so anyway!
Good for the guy who has done them and I hope that a) he gets his outlay back sooon and b) earns him a bit of money afterwards too
"...if they are perfect, do we need to know?"
I think so, yes. If I made a perfect copy of an ultra rare coin.........
I applaud Surpmil's efforts and I think he's providing a valuable service. I also think that the repro mounts should be very easily identifiable. Maybe just the letter R stamped in an inconspicuous spot, but stamped deeply enough so that you could tell if it had been removed by the third or fourth owner. Just my two pfennigs worth.
There are two distinct differences. First the thread on the socket bolts are not the same as the original and, two, the knobs on the mount are machined which the originals were not.
I think they look really good. I also think they can be distinguished from the originals easily enough for the purists.
Anyone wanting a complete kit can now have the IWS mount at a reasonable price. Those wanting an original can search, as I did, for about five years. Then really get out the wallet.
I can confirm what WilliamT has said above that these IWS brackets are identical to the originals, based on an original I have and on the original drawings.
I wondered about marking them as being reproductions, but this is a bit of double edged sword as some buyers would not want such markings, whatever their intentions.
Fortunately I haven't had to make a choice of whether to reproduce original markings as there aren't any!
There are one or two areas where machining operations have left different tool marks than appear on the original(s). That and the very slightly different allen screw thread, slightly different allen screw head, and cut rather than formed knurling, will 'clue in' those who want to tell these from an original. So hopefully we've struck the right balance there.
Like other reproduction mounts, or other gun parts, there is always the possibility that they will later be sold as, or mistaken for originals, but as we all know, that is unavoidable. Even if holes were drilled or markings engraved, they can easily be filled and obscured in steel.
In future, anyone in doubt can always contact me and I'll be happy to say if a bracket is 'one of mine' or IMO, an original. In fact, I'll forward photos of both to Badger and perhaps he may want to put them on the site for others to refer to.
Of course putting too much information out in the public domain makes the job much easier if an off-shore replicator wanted to produce real 'fakes'; that is to present their replicas as original brackets.
And by the way, I've heard from an impeccable source that the originals which were withheld when the L42A1s were sold off, have almost certainly been destroyed...
Seriously doubt the mounts kept back could possibly be in existence today.
The cost of buying an IWS mount is out of this world now. If they existed, someone would have offered them.
I am fortunate to have an original, but it cost a bunch and took five years to find.
Thank you for filling both the need and the identification of the copies should anyone be so inclined.
Now, can we expect you to make duplicate IWS scopes in the near future?
The original brackets were indeed held back, together with the IIW scopes and oher bracketry. The part number is now listed as NIV which to you and me indicates Not In Vocabulary. In other words, they're gone - no more - scrapped!
These mounts will allow those who do not have an original to have an extremely close copy that will also take modern sight rings.
The WWII scope leaves a lot to be desired, to say the least.
With this mount, modern scopes can be utilized to really allow the rifle to stretch its legs on the range.
I fail to see how anyone with a L42a1 can lose out.
Actually, I've tried the "modern" high power scope trick and it really doesn't help that much. No4 T's and L42a1's really depend much more on the shooter's technique than the optics to shoot little bitty groups, especially at distance.
If you have an L42a1 then ya gotta have the bracket, its just that the big honkin' IWS looks like it'll shear off the front mount spigot under recoil.
Go ahead and try the new fangled stuff, its fun, but for practical and serious rough duty work I've found few better platforms than the old Enfield/Hollands'. (dang old scope w/printed on yardage numbers is easier to use than a lot of the fancier stuff, less to forget!)
I think clarity in a scope counts for more than raw power, and those No 32 scopes used most excellent glass! M40a1's have "good" and usable optics too, but the rifles, ehhh, adequate sporters pressed into service.(Preparing for the hate storm now!);)
BTW, whilst I'm blathering on, what's the most common scope used on the Brit. AI rifles?
I think the man needs a big pat on the back. I also think he should number them because they will have more value as he becomes known for his work.
My L42 with Leupold M3 LR
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
My Savage with 30mm tube.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Just my .02
...MJ...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
I am considering buying another just to put a modern scope on it for my No.4(t) also. I consider the ease of install and not modifying the original rifle worth it.
Looking at MJ's pictures:thup: reminded me that the original style bracket does have the disadvantage of allowing only a very small objective diameter scopes, regardless of power! Any real bell at the front crashes into the handguard, even some 32mm 4x stuff.
MJ,
You mention a good point, well done Mr Surpmil for pulling off the nearest thing I have seen to alchemy. I hope you make some coin out of this.
The possibilities this bracket opens up for an L42 as you illustrate are most interesting.
How does the Leupold shoot? questions/thoughts/feelings???
As soon as my enfiend habit coffers are replenished, Mr Surp will be the recipient of some of my brass for certain.
As this is my first response to anything I've read in the forum, thank you all gentlemen for sharing your knowledge. This web site is paydirt .
Cheers,
FC.
Frank, call me Rob if you wish ;-) "Surpmil" was a spur of the moment thing!
Thanks for the kind words, yours and others. I've added some photos of the parkerized and painted brackets to the advert.
The paint is matt when applied, like Suncorite, and will take on a bit of a sheen when oiled or handled over time, as does Suncorite. It's a high-solids enamel and when cured it is damn tough; I've handled and tested a sample applied to smooth sheet steel with no primer or surface prep and I could not do anything to it. Over parkerizing I expect it to be almost as good as Suncorite.
Number them and use a logo and you will be famous some day. More likely it will be the next day.
Cheers
...MJ...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Surpmil, I think you have done the L42 fraternity a GREAT service. A good example of '.......x-hit or get off the pot'
Maybe I ought to follow your example and remanufacture the old Rank Pullin SS20 IIW night sight!
how does the GPMG bipod attatch? could you take a close up??
Cheers.
FC
Can you use US AN/PVS-1 , 2 guts? I know of a -1 that could be utilized!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
You can't use the PVS night vision scopes on an L42 because although they'll fit, you can't adjust the L1A1 mount to zero in the scope as you can on a PVS mount. Good try though
However, if you were just showing the PVS sight fitted to an L42 rifle at a show it'd certainly steal the show!
Actually, the AN/PVS-1 has the built in elevation and windage knobs. It works well on the L42 (night shoots at Benning are really really dark w/o a moon!). I learned on a previous thread that the main visual difference between an IIW and a PVS-1 is the oscillator cap (dome on IIw, flattop on PVS-1)
I was just wondering if the internal image intensifying thinggy could be adapted to a reproduction IIW.
Don't want to get another thread running...
We had a PVS sight issued for our L1A1 rifles but used an adjustable mount. That's the only US night vision I'm familiar with. Have you got a picture of the PVS 2. I wasn't serious about making repros either!!!!!!!
Our later IIW's had an auto brightness control in the battery cover cap and a dummy inverter cap too. But anyway, if they fit and LOOK the part, then that should be good enough.
I saw an L42/IIW combination at a show in the US and it really attracted a LOT of attention for several hours
Peter, that would be quite an investment...:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
A run of C67 scopes might be a better bet!;)
I've shipped the first brackets today, buyers in the UK should have them by late late next week, in the US a little sooner.
Canada Post is about three times as expensive as the US Postal Service for the same package and destination!:bitch:
I know some pattern makers who could do the housing pattern for casting purposes. Could even do it w/ a hollow core for less machining time. Getting the actual casting done shouldn't be a huge deal either. (I learned a lot during my P40 Tomahawk/Kittyhawk/Warhawk remunufacturing days about getting castings and forgings done. ) Not as expensive as you might fear, especially if several people all gang up on it!
Casting..., that's the EASY bit. What about the optronics ......, the 'tube' to you and me. The tubes cost almost £1,000 each to the MoD and they were buying in bulk! It cost me over £400 for a 'used but working and we won't guarantee it' tube from EEV the manufacturer when I rebuilt one for a friend of mine several years ago. (Yes, it's still working..)
Oh, yes. And after the optronics, what about the optics at the front of the tube?
Oh, yes...., nearly forgot. What about the ocular optics at the rear of the tube?
Phew...., I'd just look on Ebay if I needed one!
That was interesting reading about restoring old aeroplanes. Did you ever write it all down in book form with pictures? t'd be a nice read.
Some few pictures. I did take probably a couple of thousand pics of the N1K2 Shiden-Kai (George) fighter during its restoration for Pensacola.
Sorry, got "runn oft" the 'puter. W/ new castings I was thinking of using US PVS-2 guts for function. PVS-1 scopes are rarer but do have internal adjustments. Using -2 internals would then just require the zeroing bits, so most components can be robbed from roughly $400-800 scopes. Given the lack o' Rank Pullen SS20 IIW's it makes for a bit more than idle speculation.
On a completely different continent, what were the Canadians doing w/ AN/PVS-502 "night vision set, individual served weapon" things? Rifle use?
Peter was asking about the the special sling swivel fittings shown on the L1A1 rifle with the IWS sight fitted. The fittings are part of the Arctic sling arrangement used with British Army L1A1 rifles used in Norway or Arctic conditions.
Shown on the rifle is the special Butt, Small Arms (NSN 1005-99-965-1966) this butt is made of the same material as the standard British black plastic furniture but unlike the normal plastic butt which is filled with foam, this one is hollow. The butt had two roles, it provided a shorter butt to allow for the use of flack jackets in Northern Ireland and to help accommodate the extra clothing used by these troops operating in the cold of the arctic. It also provides a side mounting for the 3-point slings that were being brought into service so the rifle could be carried comfortably while skiing.
Originally the wooden butts had to be modified with the sling swivel being repositioned to the left side of the butt, this involved a fair bit of work and required some special fittings to be installed (if anyone has any could they let me know) It also required the laminated handguards to be modified so the Handguard band could be fitted. The one shown is specifically designed for use with the plastic handguards which don't have to be modified. This handguard band provides the second connection point for bracket of the sling and then the hook of the sling passes through the bracket and connects onto a special eyelet that replaces the normal front sling swivel providing the third point (if anyone has one could they let me know), this stops the sling sliding back through the bracket (second point).
With these three points and the use of a modified version of the HK MP5 type sling the rifle can be carried with one half of the sling over one shoulder and the other half over the other shoulder allowing the rifle to lay flat against the users back with the muzzle pointing downwards.
With the fittings and sling attached to the rifle there was also a couple of other items used. One was the LANYARD, Small Arms, L1A1 (1005-99-962-3099) and COVER, Muzzle (1005-99-962-3091). The lanyard was attached to the rubber muzzle cover and the hole in the hook of sling that was attached to the eyelet at the front sling swivel position, this was done so when the cover was removed it couldn't be lost in the snow.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sMay2006-1.jpg
Army Arctic Sling arrangement
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ticsetup-1.jpg
Just so y'all can see what one looks like, here's an AN/PVS-1:
Aerial view:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC00148-1.jpg
Side view:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC00147-1.jpg
Mmmmmmmmmmm........ Can see what you mean! What are the details on the electronic tube if you have one handy and I'll cross match them.
Might be Friday or Saturday before I can get the goodies out for inspection.
Some pics for jmoore. I have a source for tubes and other small bits. If we could come up with an IWS body sans tube and or missing other bits we could do an interchangeability test. Peter, tube dimensions are
Length: 5.830"
Diameter: 2.745"
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC00150-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC00151-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC00152-1.jpg
Mr. Laidler, off which of the internal bits do you wish reference numbers? The electronic tube number is different from an AN/PVS-2, but whilst I've got it apart might as well get anything pertinent.
I've been asked about the parkerized finish on the repro IWS brackets. Here are a couple of photos that show the finish as close as I can get to how it appears to the eye. This is with WD40 applied.
By request, here are a couple of bad pics of the AN/PVS-1 recticle. Sorry, but it was easiest to flop it sideways and take the pic w/ the light cover on as it was daylight!
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC00163-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC00164-1.jpg
Nothing fancy like the later scopes, but .....
Cobbled L42A1 and AN/PVS-1
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Not cobbled!
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Somebody:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
hi, i'm new to this forum so i'm not too sure if im posting this in the right place, but here i go. first off, hello to you all. from what i'v read, this looks like a very interesting and informative site. so far i'm impressed.
now down to the nitty gritty,
I worked for Parker Hale here in England for the last 2 years before they were closed down. on leaving i was able (at a give away price) to pick up an M82 sniper rifle that was used as a ''fitting jig'' for scopes and accesories and is in superb as new condition. it came with a run of the mill Niko Sterling scope that i use and is ok. but, what i was given at the same time, was a
Rank Pullin I.W.S. Space Model SS80/Mk1. Serial number 0200. I gather it was a returned scope from the M.O.D. more specifically from Hereford.
it is, unfortunatly, internaly incomplete, and does not work.I have kept it as i hoped to be able to get the parts needed to rebuild it and get it working. at parker hale it was used as a test rig in the manafacture of mounting systems to different firearms, I was lucky and it has a one off (i think) mount that allows me to (for effect only) mount it to my M85.(Please see my photos in gallery. it looks great and i'm told, was for its day, a very good bit of kit.
I know very little about this scope, what it was used on, when it was produced, what parts are available for it (or not).etc etc etc.
Would it be better placed in the hands of someone who would make better use of it than me as a donor, externaly it is complete but what is missing internaly i have no idea as scopes are not my strong point
. please let me know anything you may know about this scope or were i may go to find out more . all the best, pete
Nice bit of kit, there! Rifle and scope both. I'd guess that your scope is repairable, as most use fairly common tubes from just a few manufacturers and subcontractors. Try Mr. Laidler for the repair work, if he doesn't do it , he'll probably know somebody who does. I have a local (US) fellow who does my scope work and parts hunting; sometimes rounding up bits takes a while, but I'm not on a schedule.
thanks for that, i'll drop mr laidler a line and see what he thinks,it may be of use to someone as spares if nothing else,i would love to know a bit more about it anyway and he may be the man to ask, thanks for your time,
pete.