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WHAT years were they made & purchased? What is the serial number range?
what US GOVERMENT MARKS were put on them. Looking at an m-75 that seller claims is US Gov, yet serial in 3x,xxx range shows it was made in 1946. Also no goverment markings or proofs.
Thanx
Chuck
Chuck, there are a few folks on this forum trying to put together some numbers to be able to answer your questions. The only info available on these rifles is from Batha and a lot of his info is incorrect. The factory records on the US M75 do not exist, in fact, Winchester info on any of their US martial arms is very scarce. There are many variations of markings on this rifle known to exist. Some are unmarked on the receivers and have martial markings on the stock. Some have a ordnance bomb on the receiver and some even have the bomb with a US pretty much as used in WW1 on their martial arms such as the M90, M97, and M03. I doubt anyone knows the true serial number range as almost all Winchesters were built and shipped randomly. Consecutive numbered Winchesters are quire rare. I have two in my collection.#16067 with a "39" dated bbl. It is blue and has the typical M57E rear sight and the M93-B blade front. It has a AAR cartouche with a "P" on the grip. No markings on the metal. I also have # 22027, "41" dated bbl. Same exact sights, it is also blue. No stock cartouche, but does have an ordnance bomb stamped into the receiver. I have seen these rifles with a parkerized finish, but truly believe these to be reworks. I have also seen them with blued receivers and parkerized bbls. These too are reworks as Winchester took pride in their worksmanship and I rather doubt anything like that came from the factory. There are also other variations of this rifle I have seen. Supposedly 10,000 were made, but if so, where the hell are they? Martially marked M75's are very hard to find. Big Larry:wave::beerchug:
During the Clinton years, military surplus 22lr stocks were sold by Rock Island Armory. These included Winchester 75's. No doubt some of the marked stocks could have been put on commercial 75's that had a bad stock. I about purchased one for the 75 I had during that time. From what I've seen, the majority of 75's that are considered US property, have the blade front sight. Others may be questionable. Some think that the reason they are scarce is due to many being crushed around the time the stocks started appearing.
It would be interesting to find out why they would crush all the Winchesters and leave the Rems., Mossbergs, the Stevens, and some of the others that have been offered by the CMP. Paltry few (125) M52-C's and a few M52-D's made it through, but I do know for certain, some of the 52 series were destroyed, as a friend of mine, in charge of a Nat. Guard armory, did turn in about 100 of these rifles for destruction. That was stated on the official papers he got. He did strip them of sights and small parts before shipping them off. He sent me enough sets of Olympic sights for 5 rifles. About the stocks, the Rem. 513-T US marked stocks are still being sold, so one could fake one up but beings that the CMP sold them for around $100, I rather doubt they will ever attain M75 status. Besides, Winchesters always bring top dollar with any sort of martial markings. According to Batha, the US M75 should have the M57E rear and M93 front sights. From what I have seen, all should be blued from the factory, unlike the 513-T which came both ways, as did a few others. One thing about the scarcity of the Winchester, I think they cost more to produce and that kept production down. Big Larry:beerchug::wave::wave::wave::wave::wave:
At the time the Winchester 75 stocks were offered, they also had the other trainer brands available. I'll see if I can find the Shotgun News ad for the stocks. This was sometime in the mid 80's.
I have 43 of them in the database and basically the bulk were produced in 1941 and 1942. None in '43,'44,'45. There must have been a small run again in 1946 as some of those reported had provenance in the form of DCM and CMP sales. The highest serial number in 1946 I have is 38930.
Of the military year rifles 18 were parkerized and 21 were blued. Of all only 3 had any martial markings on the metal, two in the form of the ordnance bomb on receiver and one marked "U.S. Navy" on the barrel. It apprears these were put on at their bases where they were assigned and not at Winchester.
Most of the stocks were marked in some form but a lot weren't. A variety of sights were used with Lyman 57E being the most seen rear and front was a mixture of the post, Lyman 17A, Winchester 99A.
I rather doubt that the military ordered any of these rifles with the 99 front sight, although, one of my rifles came to me with a parkerized M99 front sight. It also had the 84 extendable rear, which I also doubt was ordered by the Govt. According to all I have read, these rifles were ordered with the M57E and M93-B sights, and I cannot find any evidence to the contrary. I restored mine back to "original" with the proper sights. After these rifles were sold as surplus, anything and everything did happen to them. Scope bases, that never came with these rifles, were added and many were scoped. Better iron sights were added such as the M17A and the M77 and some Redfield M63's. Any rear sight could be adapted and many were. Reddogge, I have to commend you and your taking the time to keep us informed on your continuing research into this very mysterious rifle. Maybe someday some genuine Winchester data will show up, but then again, we are still awaiting that data from the WW1 M97's, 03's, 90's, Muskets, and other commercial militaria of that period. Don't hold your breath on this one. Big Larry:beerchug::wave::beerchug:
Reddog I sent you a PM for a Win 75 Military for your list that I have for sale. I forgot to state it had a Lyman 57E rear sight. It is parkerized with a "P" stamped on bottom of pistol grip. It has a small size Redfield front sight. I have never ran across a Redfield sight this small before. What model is it or is it the Model 63 you refer to? According to the serial number it is 1946 mfg.
There is two punch marks on the left side of the action. One punch mark on each the action and the barrel. Are these arsenal rebuild marks?
MK111, yours is only the third one with a Redfield globe and no one has ID'd the model yet. Perhaps a search for a 1946 Redfield catalogue.
Big Larry,
Thanks. The only reason I did this because there was more disinformation about them than information. I am starting to pick up patterns though like the 3 years they seemed to be produced. If one falls into the first two it definitely is a military and in the third year, a good chance but would need some other signs of military usage. Similarly if one showed up blued, civilian sights, built in 1948, but with a military stock I'd suspect it was a civilian rifle dropped into one of those surplus military stocks. The year doesn't fit the mold. Now 44 or 45 rifles isn't a real large sampe but it's the only one I know of out there.
MK111. The punch marks usually signify a Winchester factory rework. Generally, the punch marks found on Winchester reworks are when the gun is re-blued and not parked. No "P" is applied at the factory either. I would surmise your rifle was reworked more than once. As for the Refield M63, it is aftermarket. Big Larry:beerchug::beerchug:
Big Larry you state the Redfield M63 is a aftermarket. I don't quit follow you here. My Redfield sight is stamped with the Redfield across the top of the sight.
By aftermarket, I mean the sight was not factory installed. It was done aftermarket. Big Larry:beerchug::wave::beerchug:
Reddogge,
Here's another serial number for you. I have a Winchester 75 target rifle that I bought directly from the Director of Civilian Marksmanship, forerunner of the CMP, back in about 1965-66. I think I paid something like $14.50 but I'd have to go back and check my records. (Heck, at this point I could probably double my money!) Anyway it is SN 32214. It is parkerized, has an oil finished walnut stock and a "P" on the front surface of the pistol grip. It came with a Lyman 57 rear sight and a dovetail-mounted blade front. The comb of the stock had been lowered as is common to some of these and as documented in Williamson's Winchester book. It was missing the magazine. The front swivel and rail are blued. No other military markings. The barrel and receiver markings are clear and crisp with no evidence of a refinish.
Let me know if you'd like any other specific information.
George Stephens
geoice@gwu.edu
Thanks George,
I added it. Great reporting and covered everything. With provenance too, I love it.
geoice. I used to have a M37 Ithaca Trenchgun from WW2 with the DCM bill of sale for $14.50. I sold it two years ago for $17,500. Yes, that is seventeen thousand dollars. I am quite sure your M75 has been refinished as there is no proof Winchester ever parked these rifles at the factory. I am confident they were all shipped blued. Big Larry:wave::rofl::beerchug::cheers:
About 10-12years ago I used to buy demilled stuff from a place in Illinois they sold by the pound you specify what type of parts- rifle-pistol misc you wanted -It was like 10 lbs for $5.00 I bought some on a couple of occasions there were Win 52-75-70 -Rem513-40x -M1carb- M1 garand-1911 pistols- All cut into pieces about 3or4 inches long- I got a lot of small parts this way they were cut in a shear with the bolt in place sometimes had wood attached I even found about a 3" piece of a US&S 1911 Who understands the goverment?? :yikes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Larry