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I don't know if there is a quick answer to this one or not. I'm having trouble dating one of my pistols. I have an early Colt, s/n 130778 that is in the suspended Springfield range. Clawson suggests that it is either 1916 or 1917, but I'm trying to get more specific. I will get a research letter if I have to, but I'm just trying to see what I can learn about it before doing so... any ideas? Thanks!!
Below is info from the old Springfield Records. Good luck
130710 101939 CO L 4TH INF TO 9TH CORPS
130771 092921 BA
130771 080436 FT WORDEN
130805 063032 LT G STATER
As you noted, the serial number falls into the range of suspended Springfield Armory numbers. The serial numbers from 127999 to 133186 were used by Colt for replacement receivers, although it is my understanding that the serial numbers are not in Colt's records. Since they were not shipped by Colt as finished pistols, the serial numbers may not have been recorded. The receivers were used by Springfield to assemble pistols as needed. Most of the parts used to assemble the pistols are mixed and what Springfield happened to have on hand.
Thank you both for the info and feedback!
This particular pistol has a Colt's commercial slide converted (marked) with the standard military markings. So, if this piece was finished by Springfield, would they have used Colt's commercial slides to complete pistols, or did Colt's complete the pistol?
I will take some pictures of this piece to share in the next couple days.
Springfield would have used any parts which were still serviceable that came in on pistols to be rebuilt. The slide dates from mid 1918 while the replacement receiver dates to 1915/1916. More than likely the slide and receiver came together during a rebuild following WWI.
From your comments, I assume that the commercial slides that were military marked are from the 1918 range? The frame is a couple years earlier? Is it possible that the two were mated together and shipped as a new pistol? To me, this piece looks totally unadultered and original. As I mentioned earlier, I will take pictures soon... is there anything in particular that would be helpful to have a picture of, or are you confident it will be as stated?
Pictures would certainly help, especially a shot of the top of the receiver.
Colt had already shipped the replacement receivers to Springfield Armory, and would not have assembled the pistol.
Well, here is a picture of the double markings on the slide. Unfortunately, it is the only picture I seem able to upload to Photobucket right now. I'm still working on the others.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...78_Slide-1.jpg
On the top of the receiver are 2 marks by the disconnector hole. "G" at roughly 6 o'clock, and "H" at 12 o'clock. I do have a picture of that too...
The slide appears to be original finish. There is always the possibility that the slide was also sent to Springfield as a replacement part.
Your description of the markings on the top of the receiver are consistent with the replacement receivers. The H is the provisional inspector's mark, the G is the government contract marking, but it lacks the assembler's mark which is normally found in the 1:00 position.
Here is an example with the H and G marking, and also having the assembler's mark b (lower case). The b identifies the assembler as Colt employee James M. Malloy. The assembler's mark was moved to the lower left triggerguard bow in 1918.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../28grx48-1.jpg
Ok - stil having issues uploading pictures. Got 2 more, but not the receiver...
Sorry for the glare and shadows... I'll post rhe receiver picture as soon as I can.
Here is the left side...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../130778L-1.jpg
... and here is the right
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../130778R-1.jpg
I FINALLY got the last picture(s) uploaded... sorry for the delay! Here is the receiver, and a close-up as well.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...eiverNew-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...er_Close-1.jpg
I can't see an acceptance mark on the left side of the receiver, which would be correct for the replacement receivers.
The finish on both slide and receiver appear original, so both parts were as new when assembled at Springfield. Nice pistol.
Forgot to ask, but what barrel does your pistol have?
To be honest, I'm not sure. I need to go take another look. I'll take a couple pics of that, too.
The barrel looks to me to be a standard barrel. "P" and "H" marked in the proper orientation for this serial range. Here are a few pictures of it. There is a "5" stamped in 2 places... on the bottom of the barrel, and on the left lug.
Top of barrel...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Ejection-1.jpg
Bottom...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6/Bottom-1.jpg
Left lug...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Left_Lug-1.jpg
Right lug...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ight_Lug-1.jpg
I'm pretty confident there were some spare comm/mil trnasferred slides that may have been shipped to SA for use with assembling pistols and for rebuilding pistols during or after WWI. Chuck Clawson has one of the comm/mil slides that looks like it has never been installed on a frame.
The pistol looks great and while it is impossible to verify with photos, I'd say the chances are good it is original. But...what barrel is in the pistol? Any info on all the small parts might be helpful, too.
Thanks for posting the photos. They were worth waiting on.
Thanks Scott! The barrel pictured is all the same barrel and is the one in the pistol. I'm in the middle of moving, but I will dig out Clawson's book when I can get to it. (Is it pictured / described in his book?) I am not very excited about pulling this piece apart further to detail the smaller parts...
Not the barrel I would have expected to see in the pistol. It must be remembered that the parts sent to Springfield were to be used as replacement parts as needed rather than for Springfield to assemble the parts into pistols. Following WWI Springfield did assemble the left over parts into pistols as 1911 production at Colt ceased in 1919.
In Clawson's big book he notes that Springfield Armory assembled 400 pistols from new components before March 2, 1921, and 589 pistols after that date.
Agreed. The vertical H & P Colt barrels were used at Colt's up to about 425,000 +/- in 1918.
If this pistol was assembled by that time at Colt's, then that barrel would make sense. But if this pistol had been assembled at Colt's, it would have a final inspector's mark on it.
Because it does not have a final inspector mark, that indicates the frame was shipped loose, not as an assembled pistol.
Colt's produced and shipped about 225,000 pistols between the time the vertical H & P barrels were used and the later intertwined HP was used. I do not think it is very likely a new vertical H&P survived to be shipped to SA for new pistol assembly post-WWI.
Most of the comm/mil slides used on M1911 pistols at Colt's appear in the mid-3xx,xxx range in mid-1918. A vertical H & P would be correct in those pistols. But I can't imagine slides and barrels being transferred from Colt's to SA during WWI. That's the whole reason the slides were transferred from commercial to military use in the first place...Colt's needed them to complete pistols for WWI.
If your pistol was pieced together post-WWI at SA, as I suspect it was, I'd expect a between-the-wars SA barrel to go into pistols built from NOS parts.
I've seen a few of those pistols Johnny refers to as being discussed in Clawson's big book. In fact, I own one Mr. Clawson identified as most likely built from NOS parts at SA post-WWI.
My pistol is Colt replacement frame No. 212387 (with no final inspection mark). It is original finish and has an original finish A.J. Savage slide that matches and has a between-the-wars SA barrel in it. That pistol is not pristine, but appears to be original, with matching wear patterns on all the parts including the slide, barrel and frame.
The only reason I think you need to look at small parts in a field strip is to determine what you have...all Colt or some SA, or ????...in order to give us more to go on. Your pistol looks nice. I agree; it would be nice to know more about it's origin.
I think we're right back where we were when johnny stated your pistol was likely pieced together in a rebuild post-WWI. Your entire top end possibly came from a pistol completed and shipped with a final inspection from Colt's mid-1918. What happened to the lower from that pistol? Who knows. But the top end was mated with a replacement frame. This might have happened at SA, or another arsenal...but I suppose anyone could have mated like-condition parts together over the years.
Regardless, it's a neat pistol.
I have gone through the pistol pretty well now... it appears to me that all parts have similar wear patterns on them. So, I believe these parts have been together for a long time.
There are some interesting marks on the bottom of the slide...at the rear is a "G" which appears to be on top of an "S".
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e_Bottom-1.jpg
I am also including a couple pics of the easily accessible small parts.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ll_Parts-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...l_Parts2-1.jpg
Sorry for the pictures... the color is off...