Trigger group status while storing the rifle?

Yea! A fun poll for the nice Garand folks. Here's the dilemma:

I hear many say to remove the trigger group from the rifle when putting it away to prevent compressing the stock. Most also say make sure not to leave springs under tension. Of course, opening the trigger group cocks the hammer. Does this mean you have to close the trigger group and drop the hammer after you remove it? What the heck do you do? What did armories do?

The poll offers options for you to tell me what YOU do but I'm interested in what armories did as well. Oh yea: I'm not a competition shooster.

Bob

Hammer down!

i never saw it documented that it made a difference whether the trigger guard is released or not. the uncocked part is just common sense.

Keeping in mind, after the garands were stored by military units, they did not unlock the trigger guard. Umpteen thousands were stored locked.

I store mine with the hammer down. Then I slowly unlatch the guard to ease the compression on the wood. Since I don't pull the guard all the way forward, the hammer spring is not compressed.

Dan is right and there is a bonus by keeping the hammer un-cocked on an un-latched trigger group....the hammer excerts enough force on the guard to keep the trigger group from falling out of the stock.

I store mine the same way as Dan and Devil Dog.

The only "match" arms room I ever saw was the 4th Army Rifle Team gun room at Fort Sam Houston, which I dropped by off and on in 1967-1971. The match M-14s were stored in locked racks with the trigger guards popped. I assume they had the hammers dropped. I never saw issue M-1's or M-14's stored any other way than fully locked during my 7-year "career" of Army ROTC. I drew a match M-14 on Okinawa in 1975 from a USMC Armorer's van but I have no idea how it was stored, but when I drew a match 7.62 M-1 at Subic Bay Naval Base that year I remember all the M-1s had trigger groups locked. I BELIEVE match M-14s were stored with the guards popped if they were not actively being used. My brother is 10 years older than I am and started shooting M-1s in about 1955. He shot at Perry on the 4th Army ROTC team in 1960. I never saw him store his match M-1s that way. So I think this idea came in about in the mid 60's with the match M-14s, and was then picked up by some M-1 shooters. JMHO.

What benefit is supposed to be derived from unlatching the trigger guard?

Once wood fibers are crushed they're crushed. Changes in humidity aside (which have no real effect on the actual strength of the wood fibers) they will never expand, return to their original shape, or otherwise miraculously heal.

Once an M1's trigger guard is locked it doesn't exert any additional clamping or squeezing pressure. The distance between the receiver rails and magazine floorplate is fixed and remains the same.

I leave all my trigger guards locked.

I figure everything is already as clamped and crushed as it will ever get and all the yanking and tugging necessary to repeatedly unlatch and relatch can't do anything any good.

Maury

The feeling was that with glass bedded match guns, storing with the trigger group unlocked helped save the glass and prevented loss of downward pressure exerted by the stock in most accurization schemes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Griff Murphey

The feeling was that with glass bedded match guns, storing with the trigger group unlocked helped save the glass and prevented loss of downward pressure exerted by the stock in most accurization schemes.

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I still don't see any benefit :dunno:

Whatever is being squeezed between the receiver rails and magazine floorplate, whether it's straight wood or bedding compound or a combination of the two, is as squeezed as it ever will be the first time the trigger guard is locked.

None of these materials are sponges. Unlocking the trigger guard won't cause them to expand like one. You can't "un-crush" wood fibers. The same goes for modern bedding compounds like MarineTex and I suspect the older ones as well.

Leaving the trigger guard locked doesn't exert any additional pressure. Once the distance between the two clamping surfaces has been closed that's all the pressure there will ever be.

I say the less yanking, tugging, twisting, etc on an M1 the better.

Maury

I've gotten into the habit of storing the rifle with the hammer down and the TG unlocked after doing a major stripdown/cleaning. With the TG unlocked I can return to the rifle at any time and apply additional cleaning, lube, adjustments, tilt testing, etc. without undue wear on the TG lugs. It's wear on the lugs that makes the stock fit loose. Once I'm ready to shoot again or for dry fire practice, the TG is locked down. "Settling in" rounds are fired making the rifle ready for score. Afterwards the rifle is cleaned and then stored with the TG locked and the hammer down. The TG stays locked until the next major stripdown/cleaning or repairs must be made.

I think the difference here is that the match accurization of most of those guns involved using fixtures during glassing that resulted in serious downward pressure on the forend. The Air Force armorers were famous for making the M-1's so tight you had to use all of your body weight to close them. I know with the M-14 types a lot of home-made jobs were done using GI socks to hold the stock in a downward attitude. Wood can certainly warp, under pressure, over time. Whether you agree or not, it is a fact that the military did store a lot of match guns with the TG's "popped" and I can promise you that the old-time armorers in the 60's-70's certainly recommended it. I'd say: "Do what you want to do." I will say that the "match" 7.62 M-1 I stored popped for 25 years seems to possibly be the most accurate M-1 I have, FWIW.

Hmmm, for *long term* storage of a competition rifle opening the trigger guard may make some sense. If it's opened enough to relieve the downward pull exerted by the Lower Band.

On the other hand if the wood is going to warp maybe it would be better for everything to be locked up so it doesn't warp in some weird can't-get-it-back-together way :dunno:

But for routine *short term* storage or storage of a Service Grade rifle when the concern is "...compressing the wood..." I still think the wood gets compressed as much as it ever will that first time the TG is closed. Any subsequent unlatching and relatching doesn't do anything but shift the receiver around in the stock and cause unnecessary wear on the TG lugs and stock bearing surfaces.

It's all probably angels on the head of a pin anyway so "Do what you want to do" sums it up nicely :beerchug:

Maury

the armorer who built our match M1A, told us to leave it latched till the end of the season, with only bore & gas system cleaned after each shooting session.

After each season, return to him, & he'ld skim coat the bedding after HIS thorough breakdown & cleaning each year. Cost, 2 six packs of cold beer/ or some fine sipping whiskey.

I'm with Maury, hammer down, trigger group latched.

da gimp

OFC, Mo. Chapter
NRA life/Endowment

Is sitting on the wall collecting dust considered to be storage? If so, then the guards stay locked in place where the Garand Gawd intended them to be. If the stock gets warped or some springy dingy thingy gets de-sprung in 15-years. . . I don't care. Will likely be dead then anyway. :beerchug:

Interesting thoughts. I think the idea that match rifles are different
from service rifles & should be unlatched may be the way to go.
Tom

I use Dan Shapiro's method on rifles that need force to close the guard, match or otherwise. If it's not tight, then just closed and decocked. Wood does expand and contract depending on the environment, and yes, it actually is rather spongelike on a microscopic level- enough that continued stress will have an affect over time- Ever wonder how nails get loose in old construction? (just a random example)

I think Griff has got it right. The reason to un-latch the guard is to maintain the SAME downward pressure the stock ferule/middle band has on the barrel. This downward pressure is important and the stock will eventually warp and loose this pressure. Many M1's do NOT have this downward pressure, therefore, leaving them locked will change nothing. If your lucky enough to have one with nice downward pressure, you can only help preserve it by un-latching when storing long term.
As far as "compressing" the wood in the trigger guard area..... The tight trigger guard "lock up" is very nice to have, but a tight receiver to stock fit is far more important. A lot of shooters think that just because their trigger guard needs two hands or a mallet to close it, they are good to go. A tight lock up will not correct an ill fitting or loose stock. Or, will a latched or un-latched T.G. make any difference with the receiver to stock fit.

Talking about a tight trigger group
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._garands-1.jpg

Hammer down and locked.

Hammer down and locked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Griff Murphey

The feeling was that with glass bedded match guns, storing with the trigger group unlocked helped save the glass and prevented loss of downward pressure exerted by the stock in most accurization schemes.

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I always stored my NM's with the guard unlatched, slipped a toothpick between the guard and the safety. Sometimes that made the guard VERY hard to latch after a few years. I'm leaning toward leaving them latched.

I keep the TG unlocked & hammer decocked thoughout winter season storage after my yearly breakdown full cleaning. Always after the shooting season is over. During the season everything remains locked up. For me unlocking
a TG during the season makes for a rifle needing to be re-zeroed and a
waste of ammo at these days awful prices.

Would love to hear Gus Fisher and Roland Beavers thoughts on this topic.


:cheers:

Same as the last 2 gents.
And BLO will cause wood swell. I have tightened a number of Garand stocks over the years. The process of BLO & unlocked storage takes a while but it works. A little steam , carefully applied can make a difference as well.
FWIW & YMMV.

Statistically, this survey has become interesting. After a few days we had a pretty stable result favoring the first option by a wide margin. However, over time, more and more votes have come in and the second option alone has crept up. Activism? Just an interesting result.

Bob

We can only vote once, yes?, so there would have to be influence peddling to skew the results.:ugh:

I may have stated previously that I only bother unlocking the trigger group if it exerted a fair amount of clamping force on the stock. Most of the WWII stocks I have really are beyond worrying about any more, but there are a few that are in good enough shape to "take the pressure off". Tight wood means small groups much more than barrel throat condition (w/in reason). There's even a couple of worn muzzle rifles that shoot very well when installed in good wood. Go figure...:)

You got to remember that the U.S. Gov owned the M1"s and they did not pay for them like we did and they had 600000 other replacement, So why take the time to pop the trigger group out.
It was a tool for the working man when in service not the pride and joy we have
today.

Former GMG, currently AO. Never seen an MRC card for ANY small arm that requires detail stripping for storage. And I have worked on M14s.

Rack op handle, safety on, try trigger. Safety off, try trigger again. If it trips, lightly oil then in the rack.

V/R,

AO2

Not required, just precautionary. Those who remove the trigger group (not exactly detail stripping, I shouldn't think...) may do so for safety/security reasons. As civilian oweners, they may want to reduce ANY possible danger of the weapon being easily made ready to fire. Additionally, they may retain the weapon FAR longer w/o replacing or servicing parts than would ever happen in military service!
I've had an M1 in my possesion longer than they served in the US forces (pre-WWII to Vietnam), and don't WANT to replace the WWII stock because its all "rattle-ly" fit, nor do I particularly want the "bad guys" to have operable weapons if they do first find and then remove/crack the safe.

T'ain't the same circumstances at all!

To compare how the millitary stored guns and how we now store our guns is apples and oranges. We consider things that our "regular" millitary could care less about. We like guns with good T.E and M.E. readings. The millitary would rebuild one when the T.E. got near 10. I change a barrel at 5. I like a tight gas cylinder and an op. rod with no wear spots. If the trigger is gritty, I fix it. I replace the sight cover when the aperature just starts to wobble. My front and rear sights are "black" and the windage knob is a little hard to turn. My hand guards have a little clearance and match the stocks.
Does anyone really think the millitary cared a damn about any of these things including a tight lock-up?
I think it is better to store M1's with the guard un-locked and the hammer down to keep the guard from falling out.

I keep it attached and locked, mainly because I have a fear of misplacing it. Plus SAI seems to think its ok.

Dimitri

I keep all of my M1's with the hammer down, however, I do not keep the trigger guard unlocked. I have never had a problem with accuracy. I keep all of my bolt action rifles with the bolt open.

Mike