M1917 Star in Circle

Hello all - first post - I just purchased my first M1917 Enfield Winchester Rec. serial number 630## with barrel number of 11-17. Bore is bright with 5 grooves and passes the bullet test. All parts have a W stamp with the exception of bolt handle has an O K or it might be a bomb with a K next to it, bolt remover lever has an E as well as the device on the rear of the bolt also has an E. The stock appears that it has never been sanded, looks great, it does have a P in box behind trigger, left side has boxed "G or C" SAA, can't make out the forehand stamp. One thing I can't get a handle on is a small star inside a circle to the right of the eagle's head on outside of the left receiver rail. Does anyone knows what the star means?

I bought this rifle to complete my WWll rifles. Being a reworked therefore isn't a problem for me. That's what was issued. I paid $600 for it. I searched all over southern California and Arizona to find this one. I hope that wasn't to much. What do ya'll think.

Correction: The star is to the right of a bomb, not an Eagle's head.

Does the circle have a 6 pointed star in it or an asterick type star?

Best Regards
Lisa

The star in the circle was put there by Winchester. There are a couple of explanations in C.S. Ferris' book (an excellent book on the M1917). It indicated the receiver was acceptable for inter-changeability. The early Winchesters were stopped from being sent to France because they weren't made to specs, and parts for repair would not interchange. The barrel is within days of the receiver. Your rifle was rebuilt courtesy of the U.S. Government at San Antonio Arsenal.
"The price of culture is going up" especially here in So. Cal. If you like it, then it's fine. They just aren't making these anymore!

Dean (the other one)

Lisa,

It's a five pointed star inside a 3/16" dia circle.

Mike

Thank you Lisa and Dean for the information. I took the rifle out today for the first and shot it. I have to admit I was a little nervous about pulling the trigger on a 93 year old rifle. All went well. The older I get (49) the higher I shot on the target. I have to aim the M1903A3 and now the M1917 at the five o'clock on the outer ring of the target to come close to center. Is it just me or does the M1917 have less kick than the 1903?

Mike

The battle sight for the '03 was 547 yds. The m1917 was 450. Without checking the books, I'd say the M1917 might be a bit heavier than an '03A3.
So, depending on what distance you are shooting, a 6 O'Clock aiming point would probably be normal, using the battle sight (leaf down). At least it works for me.
Enjoy,
Dean (the other one)

The Star/Circle indicates the receiver was one of the 'early' one's, and was manufactured before final spec's were settled. Although accepted into US service, the weapon could not be sent overseas due to the alleged 'incompatibility' issue. Winchester had to maintain it's work force while waiting for it's M1917 contract to be approved and almost lost it's shirt. When Erwin Pugsley was in charge prior to and during WWII, he made sure Winchester adhered strictly to it's contract and would not make changes unless compensated for them.

Does the star increase or decrease it's value/rarity. I'm not in the market to sell, but just like to understand what I have.

Mike

I doubt the star carries any 'extra' value. Just indicates it was one of the early rifles put out by Winchester. At the time (WWI) we were TOTALLY unprepared. That genius, Woodrow Wilson even forbade the military from drawing up contingency plans if we should get drawn into the war. And of course SA and RI were still working peace time 5/8 shifts.

Part of the fun for me, of collecting these old weapons, is getting the books that give all the history involved. "The United States Rifle Model of 1917" by C.S. Ferris is a very good book.

Having a memory like a sieve, I had an instuctor in one of the technical schools I was taking tell the class, "I don't expect you to remember all of the details, but I do expect you to be able to find it in the book!"

Dean (the other one)

My son once told me that he learned (and retained) more US History that he learned from me and from reading background material while working on our firearms collection (1776-WWII) then he ever learned in school.

Hello All,

This is my second post though the first "real" one. I've never been into military guns having caught the small bore and 22 bug long ago. My step daughter was given a M1917 by her dad. While she does shoot she's always flat broke and can't afford ammo for this rifle. She came on more of the usual hard times so I gave her $500 for the 1917, probably too much. I lurked here for awhile trying to figure out what this is. Here's the story, for what it's worth: Her grandfather allegedly bought this for $17.00 in 1940 from a mail order outfit. It supposedly came as shown. From lurking here I see it's a real "mixmaster" with Winchester receiver (#105277), barrel (W, 12-17) & front sight, Eddystone bolt, bolt release and rear sight and Remington butt plate and floor plate. The stock has no markings on the outside. It doesn't appear to have been sanded or refinished. There's been no repairs and only a couple dings in it. There is only the main stock, no hand guard or fore stock. The front of the parkerized barrel shows evidence of a front band having been there. The bore is near perfect. It came with neat tube in the butt that contains a pull through lead weight and cleaning brush and cleaning jag. The other end of the tube contains oil and a a rod to apply it to the innards of the rifle, very nice stuff, probably a dime a dozen but great build quality. It also came with a vintage sling with no markings that I've found and finally it all came in a canvas case marked "England" plus some other markings stamped on the flap. The receiver has the small 5 point star in a circle which brings me to the reason I posted this on this thread. If I read the first part of the thread correctly then an early gun such as this wouldn't have been turned into a mixmaster because of poor interchangability yet this one has been. I also have a question about the front band. The top of it contacts the barrel but in pics I've seen of the typical 1917 the rear band goes OVER the hand guard. Is this version an aftermarket or is this some variant on the usual 1917? I'm going to try to glue some pics below. This will be my first attempt at adding pics.

Sorry for such a long and rambling post. I hope you folks have some suggestions as to it's legitimacy. I haven't shot it yet but plan to do so over the 4th holiday. I will say the darn thing is built like the proverbial tank. The bolt is just robust and it feels like a very decent trigger for such a mass produced rifle.

Thanks in advance, Dave

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6/1917LH-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6/1917RH-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rontband-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ingstuff-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...anvasbag-1.jpg

Mark 2, this posting has already been answered on the General discussion forum, so I won't repeat it all here.

Patrick

Well all I can say as to the price is if you like the gun and are satisfied with what you paid then what you paid is really immaterial; could you have found one cheaper?
Oh probably with lots and lots of luck and possibly a year or two of looking but six hundred for a Winchester is actually not too bad of a price at all.

As to the star, its really impossible at this date to know exactly what they mean, probably an inhouse inspection proof, but the whole "not to be sent to yurup thing doesn't bear out (sorry Dan). My Winchester, # 62445 was made on 12 Nov 17, well AFTER contracts and specs were finalized but it has the star mark as well.

Dan

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_1651-1.jpg

On 21 december 1916 approval was given for an advance in the designation of the Pattern 1914 rifle from Mk1 to Mk1* List of changes para 17798.
The changes were;
Breech bolt: The front end of the boltlocking lug lengthened, such bolts were marked with a star (*) on the handle near the proof mark.
Barrel; The face of the rear end of the barrel is recessed to recieve the lengthened left locking lug of the bolt. The bodies of rifles fitted with barrels so recessed, are marked with a star on the top, front of the body.
Rifles fitted with breech bolts and barrels as described above are marked with a star on the stock butt. Some transitional models were made with the recessed barrels (Mk1*) but fitted with Mk1 breech bolts. These were not marked with the star on the butt and were described as Mk1. However when the Mk1* breech bolt was fitted the rifles were redesignated Mk1* and the star marked on the butt stock.

Now, prior to WW2 P14's were sent through the Weedon Repair centre, stripped, and overhauled. So, far from being a mixmaster this would have occurred in service.

And last of all, this has probably been covered, but the stock has been chopped and both handguards thrown out plus the front barrel band ta "sportyize " da rifle. I do believe these parts are still available and fortunately the metal bits haven't been buggered. (except for the odd shape of that barrel band)

Hi

I have a winchester P14 which has a Bomb with 1W inside it then a five pointed starr seperate about a quarter inch away at two oclock.
Underneath is "PATT.14"

I am not sure if it is stamped in ink or was originaly burnt into the stock.

Does the star in this case also mean something to do with incompatibility.

Whatever it means it woud appear that the starsymbol was used by Winchester prior to the P17

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Wilson

Well all I can say as to the price is if you like the gun and are satisfied with what you paid then what you paid is really immaterial; could you have found one cheaper?
Oh probably with lots and lots of luck and possibly a year or two of looking but six hundred for a Winchester is actually not too bad of a price at all.

As to the star, its really impossible at this date to know exactly what they mean, probably an inhouse inspection proof, but the whole "not to be sent to yurup thing doesn't bear out (sorry Dan). My Winchester, # 62445 was made on 12 Nov 17, well AFTER contracts and specs were finalized but it has the star mark as well.

Dan

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_1651-1.jpg

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Dan, you're wrong on the Star. It does bear out and it appeared on Winchesters until February 1918 because that is when Winchester obtained "interchangeability" status with the parts of the other MFG's. The circled star indicates the rifle was not to be shipped over seas and was no longer found on Winchesters between serial numbers 141563 and 145950.

It has nothing to do with the specifications being complete. It is about Winchester being able to MFG to the specs.

It is possible to know at this point in time and is covered very clearly in the S.A. Duff book on the M17.

If you don't mind me piggy backing on your topic;
Many years ago I saw an Enfield. I did not know that there were different ones then. No other Enfield barrel would screw on to it. I always wondered what was the deal.
Is that what it was? an early Winchester?

Well, we now have two opinions on the star. Any one for a third ?

Well if Duff has a book out on the 17 now I guess I need to buy it and see what is different than Ferris.

As for the star bit, well even though Col Thompson said, on Mar 25 1918

Quote:

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"The Winchester and Illion rifles, until considered interchangeable under final degree, were marked with a "star" on the left side of the receiver

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there are other things that tend to refute that.
1) All Early Winchester Rifles, Even the two model shop (experimental development) rifles in the Cody Museum that have NO govt acceptance stamps, nor were even submitted to any govt entity, are sporting the stars on the receiver.
2) Winchester SMLE #3's (P-14's) have the very same stars on the receiver rings
3) I really want to say one of the shotgun nuts was telling me some of the 1897's had the stars as well (that is just hearsay though, I have never seen it myself)
4) On M1917's, the star is stamped into the Hardened section on the receiver rails, they would have had to anneal this area prior to striking OR the star would have to be stamped in before initial heat treatment. If it was a mark forbidding movement into the ETO, why would Winchester have been stamping them into All the receivers since March (?) 1917, long before interchangeability issues were brought up over seas and long before any M1917 ever even made it overseas.

Just cause its written in a book or a letter don't all make it so, I see too much empirical evidence that puts loads of doubt on the theory put forward (perhaps mistakenly) by Col Thompson.

Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Wilson

Well if Duff has a book out on the 17 now I guess I need to buy it and see what is different than Ferris.

As for the star bit, well even though Col Thompson said, on Mar 25 1918 there are other things that tend to refute that.
1) All Early Winchester Rifles, Even the two model shop (experimental development) rifles in the Cody Museum that have NO govt acceptance stamps, nor were even submitted to any govt entity, are sporting the stars on the receiver.
2) Winchester SMLE #3's (P-14's) have the very same stars on the receiver rings
3) I really want to say one of the shotgun nuts was telling me some of the 1897's had the stars as well (that is just hearsay though, I have never seen it myself)
4) On M1917's, the star is stamped into the Hardened section on the receiver rails, they would have had to anneal this area prior to striking OR the star would have to be stamped in before initial heat treatment. If it was a mark forbidding movement into the ETO, why would Winchester have been stamping them into All the receivers since March (?) 1917, long before interchangeability issues were brought up over seas and long before any M1917 ever even made it overseas.

Just cause its written in a book or a letter don't all make it so, I see too much empirical evidence that puts loads of doubt on the theory put forward (perhaps mistakenly) by Col Thompson.

Dan

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That was a very well thought out post. Your points are compelling.

Ran across this pic. of the star on a Winchester P-1914. This rifle also has many British proofs. JLS https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...11129JPG-1.jpg

just FYI my P14 eddystone does not have the star , my 2/18 winchester M1917 does , no longer have my remington so cant check ,

"And last of all, this has probably been covered, but the stock has been chopped and both handguards thrown out plus the front barrel band ta "sportyize " da rifle. I do believe these parts are still available and fortunately the metal bits haven't been buggered. (except for the odd shape of that barrel band)"

for those wanting stocks and handguards - john is listing them here -
Accessories, Parts Sniper Stuff Catalog

and as to the comment above about percieved recoil of the M17 vs M03 , i agree and i think its because of the enfield style stock