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Ok Garand gurus,
I was shooting my friend’s Garand. When shoving the enbloc down the hole should the bolt release when the clip hits bottom? A real thumb pincher! :yikes: I assume the bold should remain back till the shooter releases it. What’s a likely cause for this bad behavior?
TIA
SwampRatt
This is called M1 thumb. When pushing the clip down with your thumb you should support the op rod handle with the right side of your little finger and hand. Once the clip is seated get your thumb out and release the op rod.
I don't consider myself an expert, but if you handle the M1 properly you won't have a problem. Most "M1 thumbs" do not come from loading the rifle. They come from handling the rifle with the bolt resting on the follower and not locked all the way back. Instead of pulling the bolt back until the op rod catch is locked, people let the bolt go forward a little and rest on the follower, then the slightest touch on the follower and ..OUCH!!
When loading, be sure the top round in the enboc is to the right. Push down with your thumb until the clip locks. The bolt will not go forward until you release the thumb pressure off the top round. When the clip locks, pull your thumb up quickly and let the bolt go forward. If the bolt releases but does not go forward to chamber the top round, hit the back of the op rod handle to get it going. Hit it with a sweeping motion to get your hand out of the way in case of a rare slam fire. There's no need the be afraid of the M1, just understand how it works and handle it properly.
Hope this helps.
No "bad behavior", the rifle functioned as designed...it's the operator that has the problem! The bolt is released as soon as the clip-latch engages. Failure to retain the bolt with the hand during loading results in an "M1 Thumb" most of the time...a lesson you have just learned!Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampRatt
"The burned hand teaches best...after that, lessons about fire go straight to the heart!" My Grandma
Swampratt,
Here is a good read about the M1. It is the booklet that CMP provides with the purchase of each Garand. Scroll down to page 20 for proper loading information.
http://www.lovemyguns.com/springfield_m1garand.pdf
Duane...
Point of order: the publication you cited is published by Springfield Armory, Inc. It is no doubt useful, but CMP supplies their own pamphlet. (Yes, I have both of 'em!)
Also -- and this really is a minor point -- whether the topmost round in the enbloc clip is on the left or or the right makes no functional difference. (True, at one time, the so-called "seventh round stoppage" made top round position vital. It was discovered that a manufacturing error was the cause, and corrected processes and a "product recall" solved that problem.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane
Top round on the right may be easier for some folks to load.
HTH
Ben Hartley
And now we go totally off-topic: My rifle will only feed the first round when the clip is loaded up right on top. The tip ramps look clean and proper. Comments?
Bob
"Failure to retain the bolt with the hand during loading results in an "M1 Thumb" most of the time."
This misconception never ends. :banghead:
You cannot get M1 thumb while loading a full 8 round clip.
The bolt is pushing a cartridge into the chamber. As the cartridge rises to fully chamber, it raises your thumb. Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. That's why the first round chambers and your thumb doesn't.
Improperly releasing the bolt while handling an empty rifle is what gets you a resized thumb. :thup:
I'm sure no-one thought about the space-time continuum in this case. :madsmile:
"I'm sure no-one thought about the space-time continuum in this case"
I think Mr. Garand may have thought of it when he designed the M1.
That may be the reason why you can't load a full 8 round cilp and then override the top round while trying to chamber a loose 9th round. The bolt will not override that top round in an unaltered, properly operating M1.
Think about it. If the rifle was designed with the ability to override that top round, soldiers under the stress of combat would sometimes get their thumbs mashed. The military did not need additional casualties caused by a poorly designed rifle.
I own several M-1s. VERY seldom will the bolt really release when the clip goes all the way in. Usually I have to hit the op rod handle with the heel of my hand. Now when it does snap on forward it is always a surprise but never have I caught my thumb this way... YET!
It may be worthwhile to note the difference between the op rod catch (bolt) releasing and the ability of the op rod spring to overcome the friction of the rounds in the clip/thumb on the top round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff Murphey
If the op rod catch hasn't released no amount of bumping on the op rod will get the bolt to go forward.
In a properly timed M1 the op rod catch will release and the clip latch engage at nearly the same time (ie, within the limits of the timing gauge) as the follower arm, follower rod, and accelerator all do their things.
Go to this thread Rifle Marksmanship with the M1 Garand Rifle (1942) - Military Surplus Collectors Forums and watch the "Principles of Operation" video.
Maury
If it
I especially liked the end of the M1 Thumb article in the latest GCA journal where a whole platoon who REALLY disliked their commanding officer set their bolts hanging on the follower so that when he inspected their weapons one of them was going to get him. Good stuff.
Another trick, this one directed at a fellow troop, was to take the victim's rifle apart and disengage the follower from the follower arm. Going to inspection arms the victim's follower would go into orbit. Known to happen at important inspections, and ROTC drill competitions.
I'll seen unsupervised rifles mysteriously pop an empty clip during inspection arms. Nothing like the dinner bell going off and making the inspection an unqualied success. Frank Jr.:yikes:
My post war Garands require the bump forward after inserting the enbloc clip. I have one WWII Winchester however that as soon as the clip is loaded and touches bottom that puppy is going home.
I also have a number of garands that will close as soon as the clip seats without needing a bump. No you can't get "full" M1 thumb with them but they will still take a bite off the tip of your thumb if your not careful. Most of these are WW2 era rifles without much finish left on them.They are'nt pretty but very much broken in and operate as smooth as glass.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarn
When I load an M1, I push the enbloc in with my thumb pointed up. I have had the bolt release, but it just slides off the back of my thumb. If you point your thumb down, it gives the bolt something to grab and slam into the receiver. I had a Korean War Veteran coach me as to the proper way of loading the rifle. I remember explaining how I had to load my rifle at a gun show (holding the op rod handle) before I was coached. A little old fella came up to me and said "You know, when I was in basic, they wouldn't let you load them like that. My drill instructor called us b--ches if we tried. Don't be a b--ch son." That really drove it home. I have never had M1 thumb. Keep your thumb up and make sure that op rod is all the way back and not resting on the follower.
Any comments about a rifle needing the clip to be stacked high right to feed the first round?
Bob
Theoretically, except for an already mentioned unmodified "Seventh Round Stoppage" rifle, top round right or top round left shouldn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack
But there's a lot of "legbone-connected-to-the-shinbone" stuff going on in an M1 and most of the associated parts have enough wear on them to get some real odd tolerance stacking isues.
If your particular rifle works best with the top round right then load the top round on the right and don't worry about it :thup:
Maury
I think one of the main reasons for the top round to the right, would be that it is a little easier for a person to push the clip down using their right hand. That way you are pushing on the cartridge and not the open edge of the clip.