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I am a new member and recently purchased two garands from CMP. One was a special withh all new components. I just fired the rifle for the first time this weekend and found I double fired all four times. I am assuming that I will need a trigger job but what exactly willI need to do. The trigger did not feel like a two stage trigger but pulled like a single stage.
thanks in advance for you advice.
First of all,welcome to the insane world of garand collecting!!
There are a few things to check here. One thing is to make sure when firing that you have a firm grip on the rifle. If not you can get double taps as the rifle bounces off your shoulder and towards your trigger finger causing another round to fire. If your ok there,you need to check the trigger group. You say it feels like a single stage? That's not good. Take it out of the gun and see if anything looks broken,like the pin that attaches the sear to the trigger.
With it out of the gun,close and latch the trigger guard. Next,(with the hammer dropped/released),pull the trigger and hold it to the rear,keep psi on it all the time. Make sure at all times when/if the hammer is cocked that you don't let it slam home into the trigger housing or bite your finger if it does. With psi on the trigger,cock the hammer all the way back and it should hook onto the sear. If it does not,then you have a problem. If it does hook on the sear,slowly release the psi on the trigger and the hammer should go from being hooked on the sear to hooking on the trigger itself. Again,if it does not then you have a problem. Could be a broken or worn sear/trigger pin,bent trigger pivot pin,worn/broken hammer and/or pin etc.
If you have another rifle,take the trigger group out of that one and compare them to see if each one works the same. You can also swap the other trigger group into the problem rifle and see if that cures the problem. From what you say though about not feeling the 2 stage pull,it sounds like you have a sear problem. Thats assuming there is no 2 stage pull with it out of the gun. If it is ok out of the gun(2 stage pull) but not when its locked into the gun,you could have a stock fit problem.
Good luck and report back with your findings. You'll find folks here and on the other sites more than willing to help out with any questions you might have.
And remember,the only dumb question is the one that you don't ask. No matter what it is you want to know,just ask.:beerchug:
Nothing personal but nine times out of ten, doubles with an M1 are caused by "milking the trigger." Especially when shooting off a bench or with shooters new to the M1.
It's caused by a failure to hold the rifle securely and follow through each shot.
What happens is when the rifle fires it recoils back away from the trigger finger enough to reset, then hits the trigger finger on its way back on counter-recoil thus firing the second round. It's an unintended variation of "bump firing."
When the shooter, startled by the unexpected double, firmly grabs the rifle the cycle stops.
If there really is a mechanical problem the rifle will usually run away until empty.
But there is still that tenth time so start with a function check:
1. Ensure the rifle is unloaded
2. Cock hammer
3. Place the rifle on SAFE
4. Squeeze trigger and release - Hammer SHOULD NOT fall
5. Place the rifle on FIRE
6. Squeeze trigger and hold back - Hammer SHOULD fall
7. Re-cock hammer while holding trigger back
8. Release trigger - Listen for handoff from sear to trigger
9. Squeeze trigger - Hammer SHOULD fall
You can also bang the butt on a hard surface during Steps 5 and 7 to see if the hammer will jump off the trigger or sear.
Check that the Trigger Group is assembled properly. If the hammer spring housing is installed improperly (opening to the outside) the trigger becomes a single-stage.
Maury
Basically...what Maury said! The newer the Garand shooter, the more likely any doubles are caused by a shooter-induced "trigger milking" defect. It's a military rifle, not a target rifle...with proper trigger control a must.
What John said! Proper trigger control includes follow-through. Squeeze the trigger with a mental image of pulling the hook all the way to the rear each time. Don't "search" for the sear release. One smooth squeeze all the way to the end of travel. Works fer me, anyhoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kepler
Thanks for all of your help. I just received a DVD on performing a trigger job on the Garand. Turns out that following a trigger pull the hammer comes back and hooks the secondary sear. What should happen when releasing the trigger is the hammer should engage the primary sear. THis does not happen and the hammer lets go of the second sear firing the rifle again. Not sure why it doesn't go through the full clip but it stops at two. What i will need to do isshorten the gap between the secondary sear and the primary sear by stoning the stop on the tigger for the secondary sear. I pologize if i am not using the terms correctly. Thanks and i will let you know how well this works.
DO NOT stone a damn thing until you perform a sear capture test....not unless you want to REALLY b!tch-up the trigger and buy a lot of expensive replacement parts!
Sear capture test: (This is the test performed to insure that the CORRECT sear is capturing the hammer....no other "assumption" is required if the trigger passes this test)
1. With the rifle UNLOADED (don't assume!), the safety off, and the hammer UNCOCKED.
2. While holding the trigger down, cycle the rifle action.
3. With the bolt cycled and closed, release the trigger.
4. Pull the trigger.
5. Repeat at least three times...in each case, you should hear the hammer fall when you pull the trigger. If you do, the sear has fully and completely engaged the hammer and is functioning properly.
If you do not hear the hammer drop, THEN and only then do you have a problem, and it likely has NOTHING to do with the trigger itself, but how its locating itself in the stock!
You DO NOT know what you're doing with this rifle, and mistakes that remove metal are FINAL!
John,
I followed your advice. Upon releasing the trigger after cycling the action, the hammer fell before being able to pull the trigger again. This is the same thing I saw when the action was out of the rifle. The secondary sear only just captures the hammer and upon release does not engage the primary sear attached to the trigger. This is a brand new trigger from CMP. It does not function like the old trigger group I have. I am aware that if I take anything off it can not be replaced and because of that I will need to take it slowly, only a few thousands at a time. I could replace the old trigger group in the new rifle and repeat the process at the firing range as the old rifle functioned properly when I took it out for a test fire. I have been taking high power shooting classes with an AR-15 and understand the importance of follow through on the trigger and a two stage trigger. If you were to adjust the trigger group where would you start.
Thanks in advance for your insight.
The trigger assembly is not safe to shoot If the hammer is not correctly handing off from one set of hooks to the other . The hammer must NEVER fall when slowly releasing the trigger (After re-cocking the hammer). In fact you should be able to pull on the hammer and it still should not drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by pgadsby
Either the hammer hooks are already worn / out of spec or the sear is. Most likely its the hammer. Damaged or bent Hammer pin / Sear Pin might also cause trouble. Someone with a file can wreck a good hammer really fast :bash:
If you just got this trigger assembly from CMP call them up and let them know if fails this basic safety test.
I'm with Mr Passingthrough, if it's fresh from CMP let them know and give them a chance to make it good.
Or swap parts from your other good Trigger Group until you isolate the bad parts then just buy what you need. Also agree it's likely the hammer or maybe trigger pin.
Don't try to fix a buggered up hammer by buggering up the trigger/sear assembly.
BTW, on an M1 the big piece with the T-shaped bit on top is called the Trigger; the other bit is called the Sear (which is retained by the Sear Pin). Unit of issue is as a single assembly.
Maury
And I'm with the Maury! Frankly, there's nothing you can do to correct your trigger problem without replacing parts. I'd talk to the CMP, see what they say, but that trigger needs more "help" than just some abrasive. BTW, to identify your "problem part", Maury's parts-swapping gig is an EXCELLENT idea!.
Oh yeah.....your failure is the "other" mode of sear-capture failure, and I was remiss in not including it....chalk it up to not much sleep in the previous 72 hours with my apologies.
sir had the same hammer fall with out trigger pull on a IHC M1 VFW ceremonial blank rifle, , we tried putting a thin shim of cardboard/business card under the very rear of the trigger gaurd in the little u notch, it took several tries & several plies of paper, until it cured the problem. Hope this helps
da gimp
OFC, Mo. Chapter
Broken or worn sear or it remains in the open position or the hammer spring housing is improperly assembled. Replace the trigger assembly for the former. disassemble and assemble the trigger housing group for the latter.
Go here for free .pdf manuals. Note the need for the provided UN & PW.
Biggerhammer.net - Miscellaneous Firearms Technical and Training Manuals
The engineer in me couldn't resist. Besides I couldn't make a double fire situation any worse unless it went to full auto. I was able to fix the problem by stoning down the point of contact between the sear and the triffer after removing the small pin. Upon reassebly the latches from the hammer would release from one side to the other side when releasing the trigger following cycling. The parkerizing on the metal to metal contacts cased a little roughness in the action so I gently stoned those parts to just remove the parkerizing. This resulted in a smooth action. Overall it allowed me to feel the wall in the first stage of the trigger pull, relead=se crisply for the second stage and prevent a double fire by properly catching the hammer upon its return. I was happy with the results and even happier with the initial accuracy at 100 yards. somewhere around 1.5 MOA with a bipod. Not bad for a new barrel.
I'm an engineer too....and what you have done is toss a can of STP into an engine with a bad rod bearing and think you've fixed it just because it isn't banging as loud! Your trigger is still busted....as you are certain to find out!
it ALREADY has too much taken off the hooks. Replace the hammer with a non-botched up one, buy an extra trigger while you are at it, as it may be monked up also. Then, leave it alone or send it to someone for a proper trigger job.
[QUOTE=pgadsby;59702]The parkerizing on the metal to metal contacts cased a little roughness in the action so I gently stoned those parts to just remove the parkerizing. QUOTE]
Just to clarify, the hammer and sear contacts were parkerized on this rifle?
I know that parking these surfaces does not necessarily cause serious problems, but it can make a trigger feel awfully rough until it wears off. It is so easy to mask these surfaces that I wonder why anyone would park them.
I don't have any helpful advice, I'm just curious because I ordered a CMP Special. Glad to hear it is at least accurate.
Yes the surfaces were parkerized. The stock was unfinished walnut. I used two coats of Linseed oil and seven light coats of Casey's True Oil with 000 steel wool in between each coat. The finish turned out beautiful. I performed a similar treatment on the old Garand I received except I used a single coat of Boiled Linseed Oil. Figured it already had quite a bit of BLO in it. Really helped to revitalize the wood.
Garand stocks were finished with tung oil, not linseed.Quote:
Originally Posted by pgadsby
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kepler
From the original post, I understood it to be a CMP Special, with a new walnut replacement stock. Does CMP/Dupage currently use tung oil? All of the new CMP stocks that I've seen look pretty dry.
ETA: I reread the post and saw he was talking about two different stocks
The CMP Special I purchased was virgin Walnut with no finish. The old Garand I also purchased was quite dry but had previously been finished. I have seen the use of BLO and Tung oil for treatments. I also realize that Casey's is not traditional but does provide a nice non tacky surface and is based on BLO with additional oils that help it harden.
Neither is linseed oil...it isn't "correct" either! Again, Garands were finished with tung oil!Quote:
Originally Posted by pgadsby
One of my Garands has that problem where, after reassembly of the trigger group it will shoot one round when you pull the trigger and a second round when you release the trigger. Re-installing the trigger group stops it from occurring. Don't know what I'm doing differently between each re-assembly of the trigger group but thanks for giving me the area to look.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kepler
I had the same problem with a CMP Garand. When comparing parts from its trigger group with thaso of another, it was obvious that the hammer was bent. This created a misalignment which caused the hooks to miss catching the hammet [I guess]. Anyway. replacing the hammer cured it's ills. Good luck.
Linthead