Hello all,any advice or comments on what tends to work in a 2 groove barrel?I am presently loading 180 gr. Sierra spitzer BT's,(I have a bunch of them) seems to work ok in my rifle but nothing exceptional.Thanks,Jim
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Hello all,any advice or comments on what tends to work in a 2 groove barrel?I am presently loading 180 gr. Sierra spitzer BT's,(I have a bunch of them) seems to work ok in my rifle but nothing exceptional.Thanks,Jim
I doubt that you can see any difference at all between a 2 groove and a 4 groove barrel.
I find that 180 grain bullets ahead of anybody's 4350 work very well in my 03s and A3s, two or four groove.
One reason why the 2 groove barrel is sometimes supposed to be inferior to the 4 groove is that many of the 2 groove barrels were produced after the general specifications were relaxed, and many of them would not have passed inspection if the specs were as tight as those to which most of the 4 groove were inspected.
A 4 groove barrel will almost always out-shoot a 2 groove. The 2 groove 03-A3 is a great cast bullet shooter. That about sums it up. All of my '03's like the 168 gr. bullet all the way up to the 200 gr. bullet. I like Varget, but many other powders work very well.
I have two 2 groove barreld LE´S and they work very good with a 180grs FMJ from S&B and VV N 140 powder. My experience is that 2 groove barrels wont like lighter bullets they even work with heavier bullets from 170 grs. up to 185 grs.
Gunner
Jimm03 why kill youself with heavy bullets? Are you hunting moose or shooting 600yds? I have found that a 150 gr flat base hunting bullet out of an 03 or 03-A3 it will out perform most match bullets at short ranges,that being 100,200 or sometimes 300yds.
I think the flat base is the key but use good bullets not crappy milsurp fmj's.
My load is 48gr of imr4895 with a Sierra 150gr spitzer flat base bullet.
I have used this load in many Springfields,I own 12 and shoot 8 of them and have probably owned 50 or 60 in my lifetime and this load has always worked great.
I have had brand new 2 groove and 4 groove barrels and have found no difference at the shorter ranges but have found that the 2 groove starts to lose accuracy quicker after about 2000 rounds. The 4 groove seems to last longer.
Hello all,thanks for the replies.I usually shoot 150 gr. sierra HPBTM's in front of 50gr. Accurate XMR 4064 in my A3.The 180's are really a hunting bullet I know,but I have 400 of them and they shoot fine.I was going to use them for our clubs long range silohuette shoot,(those rams at 600 yards can be a real pain...)The recoil is more than the 150's but not unmanageable to me.I was just curious as to the accuracy potential of heavier bullets in a two groove ,if it was any different than in a 4 or 6,I know its more a function of the twist rate.Thanks for the help. Jim
I second that. My first RA 03A3 was a 9-43 two groove barrel that shot like it was on fire. With USGI WWII surplus M2 AP rounds it was good for near MOA out to 200 yards. With handloads that I crafted from the 1X fired M2 brass, I used CMP surplus 173 grain match bullets for a near MOA load out to 300 yards using surplus 4895.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill H
At our old 300 yard range we had a round steel bearing out of a boxcar that measured 3.5" across a flat face. It was about 3" thick (looked like a very large steel aspirin). With those CMP bullets, my 2 groove 03A3 could ring that steel bearing more than 75% of the time.
After I shot out the original barrel throat I went though the same agony over 2 groove vs. 4 or 6 groove. I found another RA 9-43 two groove barrel for sale on no other than the old Jouster board. I had the rifle re-barreled with the exact same dated barrel as it had. And it shoots just as well.
I shoot a lot of cast loads in it now, mainly the Hensley & Gibbs #99 GC (which is nearly identical to the Lyman/Ideal 311299) and 17.0grs of 2400 for a very accurate 200 yard load.
When I load jacketed bullets I tend to use either the Sierra 168's or the 175's and have always had near MOA performance out of this rifle. A quick check of my filed targets shows some really spectacular groups with the 175's.
The point is...two groove rifles can shoot just as well as 4 groove. I would not argue the point that the average 4 groove shoots better than the average two groove, but two groove barrels are nothing to sneeze at in the accuracy department.
I would pick a better shooting two groove over an average shooting 4 groove anyday.
And for disclosure, I own three 03A3's. One each in 2 groove, 4 groove, and SC 6 groove. The Two groove is a range favorite.
If you shoot at long range, 600 yards or 1000 yards, you will indeed discover a difference. The 2 groove barrel will not shoot well at long range. Plain and simple. Also, if you shoot match .30-'06 ammunition your 2 groove barrel will wear out very quickly. Again, plain and simple. Well know in the 1950's when 03-A3's were common in match competition. Not that common today as the M16 is the match king. Im not writing about hitting steel plates, I'm writing about winning matches.
Please save my life and do not be on my target at 600 or 1000 yards with either a 2 groove or a 4 groove Springfield. You will be all over the place and I will be worked to death trying to give you good pit service.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve
Military tubes are not target grade. I do not know what the accuracy criteria was for a WWII barrel, but I expect if it shot a bullet in the general direction of the enemy, did not blow up, that was all the accuracy needed.
Now I have shot in 100 yard reduced matches with a four groove A3 and a two groove A3. With 168 match bullets, they are equally awful. Barely hold the nine ring. I think the best I have shot was a 188. Both barrels will hold close to 2 MOA.
My load is 168 match, 47.0 IMR 4895, any case any primer.
I think the four groove barrel is a bit more accurate, but I can't prove to the nth degree.
I am certain there are a few military barrels that are better, but they are statistical accidents.
For cast bullets, the two groove was remarkably better.
With 180 grain bullets, the twist rate is 1:10 for both, so why should anyone expect one barrel to do better than another.
The American rifleman had an article, back in the 50's?, where two groove and four groove barrels were tested with ball ammo. I recall funny results, like the two groove barrel did better with armor piercing.
When I lived in Wash. State I knew many old timers who competed in the 1950-60's. They used (and liked) the 03-A3. They all had piles of spare 2 groove barrels. ($.98 from the DCM) They needed the spare barrels as they were issued AP ammunition and it was well liked but was very hard on 2 groove barrels. Yes, you are right about 2 groove barrels and cast bullets, they are made for each other.
I think Hatcher's book is the reference that stated that there is no substantial difference in accuracy between the 2 and 4 grooved barrels. But, I'm sure the testing was done with govt. ammo (bullet weight and powder). Of course, it's faster to produce a 2 groove over a 4 groove barrel, a welcomed production saver during wartime.
Remember, the WWII sights are battle set for approx. 600 yards. Longer bullets are more stable in flight than shorter bullets, and so, are more accurate at longer ranges. But so many factors influence accuracy including type of bullet (hollow point, spiral point, flat point, boat-tail vs. flat-tale).
Keep in mind that rifles (commercial or USGI) designed to hit the mark at 1 mile + ranges are surely 4 groovers. So, the longer the distance, the 4 groover will have the advantage over the 2 groover, eventually.
My pet load for all my .30'06's is 43 gr. H4895 and I use mainly Sierra 168 gr BTHP's for match shooting where handloads are permitted, 165 gr. bullets for deer hunting, and pulled USGI 173 gr. match bullets for informal target/3 gun/turkeys; they all shoot to the same POI. I'm not a very good benchrest shooter but my SC 03A3 with Leupold 3-9X and rebarrelled with '44 Remington 2 grove barrel $3 DCM barrel will shoot all of these loads to ~ 1 MOA accuracy. A three round triangularization group for a check before going hunting often yields a group well under 1" at 100 yds. This is a mild load and yields good results with my M-1's and all of my '03's. HOWEVER, before using anyone's loading data you should double check your own books and have professional instruction; I offer this data without accepting any liability for its use or misuse. If there is anything wrong with my load, it is that it might not be stiff enough to work some M-1s with tough op rod springs. The original 6 groove barrel on the SC sporter was ringed, but gave fair to good results with 180 flat base bullets - I can't remember the charge but it was mild as I recall. It didn't like anything lighter.