Alright, what have I got, LB question

I've been offered a 1942 Longbranch, two groove, no4mk1*, in good average condition with the back story that an uncle who was in the army in NZ bought it from them as he left for civilian life, common enough story here, the army were offering new LBs from the crate for $10-$20 way back.
The thing is, it has serial number like no other I've ever seen on a Longbranch.. The serial number is 18487. Thats it in its entirety, its on the bolt handle, left wrist and fore end. Its is quite small letters, deep and sharp, there's no sign of any other numbers, or having been scrubbed off, and on the bolt handle its obvious this is the only one its ever had.
I could post pics in a few days time.
My take is that its a very early model of the * models, but seeing as the number and letter serials were well established by then, this should have been in sequence with the others and had a normal number.

So what do you all think, is there something collectible and out of the norm here?

New Zealand put its own number on those rifles. The number you gave is typical of the added number. It may be that the original number was scrubbed before the new was added.

When I was in NZ Jona, the NZ serial number was always prefixed by the N - arrow - Z logo. The old number was usually (but not always) present too. We also have a post-war ex NZ Army Bren at work and that is NZ serially numbered and that Inglis number is present.

If I was you RJW, I'd measure the thickness of the butt socket to seee whether the original has been linished off

So, is it a Long Branch bolt?
Every Long Branch rifle I own is marked at the root of the bolt handle with the "LB" mongram, or the Canadian Arsenals "CA"...like this photo of the bolt out of a "3L" rifle.
18487 could be a Maltby serial number---especially if it's stamped on the rear face of the bolt handle. Is the machining of the bolt handle at the transition from round to square a little rough, off center, hasty?
Wouldn't be the first time a rifle was renumbered to match a replacement bolt.
-----krinko

Thanks for the tip, I'll get to take another look on the weekend, and get a few pics with the ol camera.

The rifle may have been made up from unumbered replacement parts, who knows how it got that serial No! Maybe an armourer made it up for himself?
I have seen Savage manufactured rifles in NZ with Longbranch serial No`s, obviously made up with what ever parts were at hand!

All Savage made rifles, parts and machinery got sent to LB when the Savage contract ended.
"...bought it from them as he left for civilian life..." Don't know about how NZ did it, but no troopie anywhere else was allowed to buy or keep any of his issue kit, of any kind.

yes, I agree. In this case it not the issued kit. Late 60's and early 70's the NZ army was surplusing longbranch rifles from new in the crate. Soldiers could buy them, one or more I don't know, for $10 or half of what civys were paying.
I've heard this from several sources who were buyers at the time.
Otherwise I love seeing stories that enfield x was grandads rifle in the war, the last one of those I saw recently was drastically sporterized and was promoted as a special lightweight model the army was testing...rofl, some people take the cake.

I can top that. a seller at a swap meet had a No4 with the section for the rear sight milled off. (obviously to mount a scope) BUT the story was "The Royal Navy didn't like the reciever mounted sight and preferred the rear sight mounted on the barrel instead!:madsmile:

I'd look thru a stack of rifles, and toss out the ones that were odd balls. I wanted a "typical" rifle. Hate to think what I passed on. There are so many anomolies in Enfields, I'd never say anything for sure. If it looked ligit, I'd jump on it. jmho
limpetmine

When a rifle receiver was damaged beyond repair, it was often replaced with another reciever, and renumbered with the origional number. There are more than a handful of examples of this around. This might explain what you saw.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S-A-M3

The rifle may have been made up from unumbered replacement parts, who knows how it got that serial No! Maybe an armourer made it up for himself?
I have seen Savage manufactured rifles in NZ with Longbranch serial No`s, obviously made up with what ever parts were at hand!

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Not in New Zealand it wasn't Limpet! Nor in Australia or Britain. We had an identifiable 'master component' for each weapon that was neither supplied to Ordnance from the factory or ever available from Ordnance to our workshops. If the 'master component' was damaged beyond repair, then the rifle was condemned and was certifiably scrapped, against a signature or returned to Ordnance.

The sole exception to this, in my very little experience, was the M8C spotting rifle. But who would want a spotting rifle!

Canada was different (apologies to the Canadian I disagreed with over this..., was it you Maple Leaf?) as their Ordnance system did allow for this. And because of this, when the Brits and Canadian Armourers worked together such as in Wetter and Soest in Germany, special arrangements had to be made .....that seemed to work! But if you wanted an M8C!

I'll have pics a day or two on this...

Given that the British didn't use this procedure, someone must have! I've got 4 or 5 examples in my serial number list of oddities like this, and a picture of a 1955 Long Branch with a 1943 serial number, (IIRC). I've also read elsewhere that this was done, using new but un serialed receivers. So if not your guys, perhaps the Canadians? Having a large shipment of LB's to NZ would lend credence to that theory, I suppose, given that the NZ's restamped each rifle with their own number. (I have a nice one with the N ^ Z stamp, as well).
Ye-gads, it could be maddening! :madsmile:

You're right of course Limpet, Canada DID issue replacement spare bodies..., what we called the master component but these weren't available in NZ and Australia because I worked there for 3 years. There were no bodies available in the NZ Ord system that I was ever aware of and we scrapped quite a few crates of LB and S rifles at the big Northern District Ord Depot.

As a matter of interest, when we did scrap rifles, we destroyed them with the cutting torch so that the serial number was still legible and whole. The two (pistols) or three (rifles) or 4 (machine guns and SMG's) parts were laid out and the condemnation certificate, a piece of paper called an AFG 1043A was signed by the workshop ASM then the Orderly Officer who certified that he'd seen the parts AND cross checked the serial number

Hi Peter, NZ must have had replacement actions, because I have seen and owned at least 10 Savage rifles with LB serial Nos, wish I had taken some photos of then now.There were some unnumbered No4 Mk2 actions kicking around in the 1970`s, perhaps someone brought in some similar Mk1 actions and put them together. The No4 rifles sold with the Cadet Rifles in Wellington recently, were a real mix of parts and serial No`s. I think things have gone down hill badly since you were here! Some of the Lee Enfield rifles on display at the Waiouru are a discrace.
Stuart.

I've been back to the rifle and its clear that the bolt handle, the wrist and the knox form have been ground down and refinished in a kind of parkerizing. Whether this was done privately or army I don't know.
I'm looking around here to see how to get the pics up.