Enfield headspace issue?

I've got an Enfield headspace question for you folks. My first Enfield so I'm not sure.

I picked up a mismatched No. 4 Mk. I* Savage, with #1 bolt head, the other day but think I may have a headpsace issue. The fired brass, from 180 and 150 grain Federal hunting ammo, has a noticeable color change around the case head area. The bottom 1/4" of of the case just above the rim is bright and shiny and above that the case is much lighter in color. You can feel the case change shape slightly at the juncture of the color change. It's not making a single line, but rather two distinct sections.

The rifle was previously owned by a CGN friend of mine, who reloaded for it and didn't note any problems, at least to me. My Mosin Nagant does the same thing to its brass so I'm not sure if this just a trait of rimmed cartridges or if both my rifles have problems. I'm really wishing I had a digital camera about now.

If this is a problem, I'll be needing a different bolt head but I seem to recall that #1 is as large as you can go which means I'm going to need to re-barrel it, right?

:sos:

#1 bolt head is the second smallest normally available. Commonly available and larger are the #2 and #3 bolt heads. There is also the #0 bolthead, but that would be going in the wrong direction if it is a headspace issue you are having.
There are rumoured to be larger (#4) and smaller (#00) boltheads out there as well.

I should also note, cases stretched from about 2.212ish to 2.230 with the necks stretching a fair bit. This doesn't sound good. Where might one track down the suitable Enfield headspace gauges, and which bolt head direction will I need to go?

:thdown: :bash: :bitch:

Are you seeing the expansion ring which forms at the point where the solid casehead makes the transition to the case wall? Are primers protruding? With a little right angled probe, can you feel a groove inside the casse about 1/4" from the base? Try sectionning a few cases. If there is a ring forming which will lead to incipient separation, you will see it.
What you are observing could be normal expansion in the often generous Lee Enfield chamber. This isn't the same as excessive headspace.
Is there a gunsmith in your area who has gauges? Supply houses like Brownells sell gauges.

It's normal for the case to have an annular bulge ring where the brass transitions from thick base to thin case wall. As tiriaq points out, as long as there is no insipient separation forming, you're fine. Just neck size when you reload so you minimize stress on the brass and segregate your brass for each .303 rifle.

Generally, long before you get a case head separation due to headspace, you'll get other trouble signs like backing out or severely flattened primers.

Neck stretch is a non-issue and is why you trim brass when you reload ;)

Man, I am relieved or what. Primers are not flatening or backing out at all, so it must just be the Enfield chamber. That brass sure moves around a lot though, freaked me out. I've got the RCBS neck size die so I'll stick with that. I will pick up some gauges from Brownells for future use. This is the first rifle I've reloaded for, my other two rifles shoot surplus and my .45 doesn't have this problem, so I guess this was a rookie panic attack for nothing.

Thanks for the help folks.

Remember, the .303 headspaces on the rim of the cartridge, nto the shoulder. The chambers were cut long on purpose to account for dirt, sand, mud and fouling from battlefields.

When the round fires, the brass will expand to completely fill the loose chamber. This is totally normal. For reloading though, you only want to neck size and use the brass in just that rifle from now on. If you ful length size it, you'll work harden the brass and reduce its lifespan dramatically.

Hope that helps!

Military and SAAMI gauges differ. Brownells will be selling SAAMI gauges. GO is .064, NO GO is .068 (I think), FIELD is .074. Military use .064 and .074. If a rifle swallows .074, its too loose. SAAMI NO GO is useful if rebarrelling, or setting headspace to a minimum. A lot of servicable rifles will accept an .068 gauge, and are within military spec. For handloading, and perhaps better accuracy, minimum headspace is better. If you get only one gauge, get the .074. If rifle accepts it, without any resistance on the bolt handle, adjustment is needed. I have a quantity of brass fired in current service issue No. 4 rifles. A significant percent must be culled because of incipient separations. Government rifles firing issue ammunition.
If you want to see fireformed .303 brass, cases fired in a Ross with the enlarged chamber are rather dramatically reshaped, compared with a Lee Enfield.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by happydude

Primers are not flatening or backing out at all, so it must just be the Enfield chamber. That brass sure moves around a lot though, freaked me out. I've got the RCBS neck size die so I'll stick with that. I will pick up some gauges from Brownells for future use.

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In my opinion, the best way to travel with the Lee Enfield is Lee's collet sizing dies. Far less trimming and working of brass. The part number for .303 British is 90717. I usually don't have much good to say about Lee products, but the collet sizers are the pick of the litter in my opinion.

I test mine with a .074" gauge.

as for reloading, I don't really want to trry to keep all the different rifles brass seperated so I'm still full lenght sizing, up to 3 reolads now with no problems, but I am using mostly IVI brass.

I'm working on an ideal to case anneal the necks, but still in the early stages, it will be automatic and be able to handle volume. :)

I recall a setup which had an electrically rotated turntable, the cases would pass through a flame, and then be tipped into water. Exposure to heat was uniform.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by woodchopper

I test mine with a .074" gauge.

as for reloading, I don't really want to trry to keep all the different rifles brass seperated so I'm still full lenght sizing, up to 3 reolads now with no problems, but I am using mostly IVI brass.

I'm working on an ideal to case anneal the necks, but still in the early stages, it will be automatic and be able to handle volume. :)

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Handloader magazine a few years back had a review of a setup for doing automatic annealing.

In comparing my brass to other Enfield fired brass, there's no problem. Now I just have to figure out how to get my Sierra 125's into the case mouth. I've been told it might be a chamfering issue. The Hornady boat-tailed 174's load fine because of the boat-tail, but the 125's are a regular flat-bottomed design and won't rest inside the case mouth. And here I thought loading for a rifle would be easier than for my .45.

If chamfering doesn't work, could you not bell the neck slightly as you would do for some pistol loads?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by happydude

In comparing my brass to other Enfield fired brass, there's no problem. Now I just have to figure out how to get my Sierra 125's into the case mouth. I've been told it might be a chamfering issue. The Hornady boat-tailed 174's load fine because of the boat-tail, but the 125's are a regular flat-bottomed design and won't rest inside the case mouth. And here I thought loading for a rifle would be easier than for my .45.

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Several possible fixes.

First, see if chamfering the case mouth makes a difference. The fact they don't sit prettily upright in the mouth as you run them into the seating die doesn't necessarily mean anything - support the bullet with your fingers until it has entered the die.

If that doesn't work for you... Next, you can try slightly belling the case mouth - and I mean slightly. A .45 bullet inserted nose first and a little tap on the bullet base should do it.

Finally, the elegant solution - use a Lyman "M" die. Finish with a Lee Factory Crimp die if you don't like the neck tension afterwards (another Lee product I think a lot of).

A light chamfer and holding the bullet as it rides into the seating die did the trick just fine. I'm used to pistol bullets sitting there contently as they go for their ride up, not so with rifles.

Parashooter published a good article in the Technical Articles for Milsurp Collectors and Re-loaders(click here)

Headspace 101 for .303's (click here)

Regards,
Badger

If you'd like to measure the actual headspace gap you can punch out a series of feeler guages from 0.002" to 0.010" and place them on the back of a virgin cases using white grease and proceed to step them up until you find resistance on the closing motion and that will be the space in question. This hould be done while the gun is in a stripped down condition, i.e. no trigger or anything else that would interfere with the feel. This can be done with most firearms for a cheap and dirty way to check for excessive space, its a lot cheaper than buying a gauge every time you check H/S. Its also done by many guys building fat barrel guns with very tight chamber. HTH-SDH

Measure the rim of the .303 case, add the thickness of the shims, and you will know the gap between the barrel face and the bolt face.

Hello everyone,
I shot my No.4 in a CMP vintage rifle match on Saturday and I was using new reloads that I had worked up using new brass. I experienced multiple cases with visible splits about .125 to .250 above the rim and at least 3 complete head separations. My Enfield is fitted with a #3 bolt head. From my research on this forum I have concluded that I have excessive headspace issues. Will this require a gunsmith to fix or is there another solution? I know from reading a copy of a manual that was posted here that I have the largest bolt head already. I don't think switching to a lower numbered bolt head will fix this. Has anyone else had a similar problem like this?

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Originally Posted by NC_Xplorer

Hello everyone,
I shot my No.4 in a CMP vintage rifle match on Saturday and I was using new reloads that I had worked up using new brass. I experienced multiple cases with visible splits about .125 to .250 above the rim and at least 3 complete head separations. My Enfield is fitted with a #3 bolt head. From my research on this forum I have concluded that I have excessive headspace issues. Will this require a gunsmith to fix or is there another solution? I know from reading a copy of a manual that was posted here that I have the largest bolt head already. I don't think switching to a lower numbered bolt head will fix this. Has anyone else had a similar problem like this?

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This is not a headspace problem. Your cases are too small for your chamber. The case is lying in the bottom of your chamber held firm by the bolt on fireing the case expands more to the unsupported side causeing head separation at worst. Solution 1 use a fireforming light load or add a O ring to the case to centre it in the chamber before fireing. Get better fitting cases or better quality ones. Do not mess with the bolt untill you are 100% sure it is not the ammo

To expand on what Bindi2 said above, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and the weakest link here is shooting American made .303 cartridge cases. Our American made commercial .303 cases are designed to shoot in rifles with smaller diameter chambers that have less head space than military designed rifles.

On top of this American made .303 ammunition must be safe to shoot in oldest Enfield's still being shot today. The chamber pressure of the original British .303 smokeless cartridge was 17 tsi or 17 tons per square inch which was later upgraded to 18 tsi and then 19 tsi. These pressures convert to 38,080 CUP, 40,320 CUP and 42,560 CUP respectively. http://www.gordonengland.co.uk/conversion/pressure.htm

The bottom line here is that Lawyers working for the American firearms industry help design the .303 British cartridge case and the factory chamber pressures are kept below 43,000 CUP. The standard rated pressure for the .303 British is 46,000 CUP (copper crusher method) or 49,000 PSI (transducer method).

Below are two fired .303 cartridge cases, on the left is a Prvi Partizan case and on the right is a Greek HXP case. The Serbian made Prvi Partizan case on the left has a larger base diameter than the Greek military HXP case which shows how much the case expanded to meet the chamber walls.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...privihxp-1.jpg

The only cases I buy today are the Prvi Partizan cases because they are made to a higher standard than American made cases and are .010 thicker in the base web area.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5203-1.jpg

Below is a once fired factory Winchester case fired in my 1943 Maltby with the head space set at just under .067, this case has stretched and thinned .009 (nine thousandths) in the base web area.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP45211-1.jpg

The second time these cases were reloaded and fired.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5191-1.jpg

Your Enfield "might" have a head space problem, it might also have a large diameter chamber and last but not least it might be suffering from weak wimpy made American SAAMI cases. When it comes to the .303 British I do not believe in the fault finding terms of “inherent weak design”, “rear locking lugs” or any of the other garbage you hear about the Enfield rifle. I have been reloading a Winchester 30-30 with rear locking lugs for over 30 years and NEVER had a single case head separation.

The only difference between my 30-30 and the British Enfield is the chamber pressure the cases were designed to withstand when fired.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5187-1.jpg

Check your Enfield's head space as a starting point and test fire Remington factory loaded ammunition as a base line test for case head separations. Remington made cases are the thickest of our American made cases and are loaded to lower chamber pressures than reloaded ammunition can be.

The design of the Lee-Enfield chamber and ammunition is problematic.
When the chamber is at it's largest (minimum material condition) and the brass is at it's smallest (minimum material condition) the clearance between the case and the chamber is about .012 at the case head. In actual use the difference is about .010. This is about 2X what is found with other infantry cartridges.
In addition the Lee-Enfield standardized chamber has a shoulder that looks nothing like the ammo and the chamber shoulder can be as much as .067 forward of the shoulder of the ammunition. This promotes stretching of the brass also.
While there are variations of head space they are minor in comparison to the engineered in clearances between ammo and chambers. These clearances combine with the springiness of the rear locking Lee-Enfield design, which dates back to the black powder era, to promote stretching of the case head at the junction of the solid head and the case walls. Insuring there is minimal stretching of the case head on the first firing will improve case life regardless of the actual measured headspace of the rifle.

Below is an example showing the effects of head gap clearance on the left hand case, this is nothing more than the air gap between the rear of the case and the bolt face. If you add the “air gap” to your rim thickness you will have your actual head space reading.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...009/10/9-1.jpg

On a case with a rim thickness of .058 and an actual headspace reading of .074 you have .016 “air gap” behind your case and under normal chamber pressures your case will stretch and thin to meet the bolt face.

This initial stretching and thinning is what causes your cases to crack and fail, the secret to this is to NOT let the case stretch on the first firing.

By slipping a rubber o-ring around the case before the first firing you will force the case against the bolt face “removing” the “air gap” at the rear of the case and eliminate case stretching and thinning.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5098-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5096-1.jpg

Below are images from Parashooters “Headspace 101”, the first image shows the “air gap” or head gap clearance.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rame_000-1.jpg

The second image shows the primer backing out of the primer pocket under pressure and meeting the bolt face.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rame_002-1.jpg

The third animated image below shows the case stretching and thinning in the web area and self destructing.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stretch1-1.gif

By using and fire forming your cases with the rubber o-ring you are effectively setting the headspace to “zero” (No air gap) and preventing the cases from stretching.

Y'all need instant replay on this topic.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Y'all need instant replay on this topic.

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Instant replay is eating grits and okra for dinner when you already had grits and okra for breakfast. :slap:

Sounds good! Grits and okra- do it again!

No, really. You should have an Enfield headspace and chambering Sticky.

ETA Ok, there's already a headspace sticky (maybe could use additional input?), so a L-E 303 brass and chamber systems thing. W/ charts and data and computer graphic coolness.



Mr. Laidler states "Don't over CHS", which is fine, except for us knotheads that will reload any old piece of brass found at the range. (I've about quit that habit, except for pistol brass, excepting AMERC brand! (lots of exceptions, eh?)) Parenthectically speaking, I am. Oy!

If you do further searching on head space you will find Thunderbox in the UK and Son in Australia think Americans have “head space phobia”. If you dig even further you will find out both Thunderbox and Son reload Greek HXP cases and don't have any head space problems.

The people having the majority of “head space problems” are shooting American made cases designed to SAAMI specifications.

After reloading my Winchester cases in my 30-30 with rear locking lugs for 30 years and NEVER having any problems I asked myself “why” Winchester cases fired in a 1943 Enfield fell apart after 2 or 3 reloadings.

The answer to this question is how our American made cases are designed, the grade of brass these cases are made from and the chamber pressures they are designed to properly function at.

The real problem about Enfield head space boils down to who's biography you believe more, Montgomery's or Eisenhower's. :D

I wonder what grade brass Greek HXP cases are made from and what grade brass have “inherent weakness” problems when fired in a British .303...............

(please note the elongation percentage for the different grades of cartridge brass below)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hardness-1.jpg

I don't have “head space phobia”, I just don't believe 99.9% of the garbage people write about rear locking lugs and a inherent weak design.

I bought 500 once fired .303 Greek HXP cases from Brian Dick that had been fired in many different Enfield's AND machine guns. After cleaning and checking all 500 cases on my RCBS case mastering gauge NOT one case had any thinning or stretching in the web area of the case.

Not all .303 British cases are designed to the same quality.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP4513-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP4523-1.jpg

Even with the head space set at or below .067 our American made cases still stretch and thin in the web area and self destruct.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP4521-1.jpg

Below is a once fired Serbian made Prvi Partizan .303 case that appears to be made to British military specifications, no bulges, no stretching, no thinning.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5058-1.jpg

Someone call the Serbians and have them bomb our American ammunition factories and then maybe we can get some quality made .303 ammunition. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Edward Horton

If you do further searching on head space you will find Thunderbox in the UK and Son in Australia think Americans have “head space phobia”. If you dig even further you will find out both Thunderbox and Son reload Greek HXP cases and don't have any head space problems.

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Hey, Mr Horton... I have stopped reloading HXP cases for now. I got another box of twelve hundred HXP89 to empty out before I reload them.
I will be doing all my initial firing with the o ring fitted from now on also. Even though "head gap" isn't a major issue with the HXP cases, and true- I have some that have been reloaded to MkVII specs 6 times, with two light FLR's, (usually on the third reload and the fifth to keep them from being tight to chamber) and neck sizing in between. I have a couple of chambers that do leave the cases showing a stretch on one side at the web. Centering and fireforming will most likely delay even further the eventual head separation that I still haven't had.

Thumbs up for all the info here so far :super:

If the so called "undersize" US made brass is used on a different application such as the 6.5X53R Dutch M95 turnbolt Mannlicher (with the front locking arrangement identical to a Mannlicher-Schoenauer) the US made brass will give normal life. Normal life meaning it can be loaded to full power ballistics and it will last until the primer pockets wear out from pressing primers in and out. I would point out that the M95 Dutch Mannlicher design is a contemporary design of the original Lee-Enfield
and is much older than the #4 Lee-Enfield. One way to increase the life of brass in the Lee-Enfield is to purchase or form brass with case heads at least .455 in diameter. If you can find brass as large as .458 it is even better since is is likely that your chamber just ahead of the rim actually measures .460 to .462. This is an as designed condition. As designed the brass can actually be as small as .450. Combining the maximum chamber with minimum brass stretches the case head at the web diametrally when fired.

BTW the chart below is nothing more than the different tempers of the exact same material 70-30 cartridge brass. The various tempers are developed by cold working of the material or by annealing cold worked material back to a softer temper. Typically the case head will be of a harder temper. Since it is desirable for the neck of the case to be more ductile it is annealed back to one of the softer conditions.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hardness-1.jpg

Ed, FYI: The MG's used with that HXP brass were Lewis,(two different guns), Vickers, (two different guns), and a Bren Mk.II. The rifles were everything from Long Lees to No.5's. I'm even surprised at the result of your test considering the diversity of weapons used. I've been using HXP for years to reload for good reason I guess. ATB. Brian

Greek HXP is made on Winchester supplied drawing machinery, using Olin cartridge brass same as any Winchester ammunition, and loaded with Olin powder produced by the same methods used for the Oilin powders used for winchester sporting ammunition.
There may be differences in rim thickness and such, especially since Winchester cases have gotten a poor reputation for the last twenty years or so, but that was not always the case.

PS
I have recently run across accounts of some Privi partizan .303 ammunition sold in the US some years back that had caused problems due to soft brass. Hopefully thats no longer a problem, but it would pay to avoid older production Privi Partizan ammo and use only recent production cases.

Thats funny one of our British forum members stated that the machinery for making the Greek HXP .303 ammunition came from the British Radway Green facility.

The myths and urban legends keep on going and going just like the Energizer Bunny.

Ok folks ... :lol:

Let's all make sure this thread doesn't start to slide, if you get my drift .. ;)

Regards,
Badger

Thanks a lot Badger, I pulled the pins on two grenades and now you want me to put the pins back in when both hands are gripping the spoons.

I'll just sit here and wait for things to quite down and then “slide” them under someones computer when no one is looking. ;)

Never mind, I have to go now, someone in another forum is using duct tape to check head space.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...doorover-1.gif

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Originally Posted by Edward Horton

Thats funny one of our British forum members stated that the machinery for making the Greek HXP .303 ammunition came from the British Radway Green facility.

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If the machinery came from Britain why would the ammo be loaded with a 174 grain flat base solid lead core bullet, rather than the MkVII bullet or the Boatail MkVIII bullets. Also if the machinery were from britain why is the ammo Boxer Primed when British .303 is all berdan Primed?
Why is the powder charge Olin Ball rather than either Cordite or IMR3031?

And lastly why is the brass of a different color than British brass and the rims not quite as thick.

During that time frame Britian could not even produce enough ammo to supply its own forces, how could they build ammunition plants for Greece?

As for thin rims on recent manufacture .303 cases, and the similar thin rim of the Krag cases.
Max rim thickness of the Krag is .064 just as the british .303 specs would call for, but US Army specs for the Krag rim is .060.
Old commercial krag brass often mikes at .064 or higher, the reason it was once recommended for .303 handloads. More recent production mikes at .059 or there abouts, closer to the army specs.

I suspect that commercial Krag cases at one time were made on the same machinery used for .303 brass. In more recent times the reverse has come about, .303 cases now being made on the machinery set up to make Krag cases to the original specs. There may be other rimmed cartridges in this class that also call for the thinner rim.

"During that time frame Britian could not even produce enough ammo to supply its own forces, how could they build ammunition plants for Greece?"

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../grenade-1.jpg

The Germans looted or destroyed the entire Greek munitions industry.
In 1946 Britian anounced that it intended to cut off all assistance to Greece, they could no longer afford it anyway. In 1947 Truman instituted the military assistance Program under the "Truman Doctrine" to rebuild the defence industries of Greece and Turkey among others in the region.


http://www.mysearch.com/search/redir...HQ%3D%3D&ct=AR

I don't know if therre were two specifications for HXP ammo. One for the uk MoD and another for everyone else but that made for us was made to the tighest of controls and specification. It had to undergo exectly the same checks and controls as our previous RG and RL stuff. Which it did and there were few if any complaints about its performance.

We also used it in our machine guns too

We also had a huge (42,000?) round batch of Privi .303 1978 Mk7z ammo inspected, tested, analysed and approved in order to use it in Vickers guns. We still use some. And the Government Scientist who did the tests for us said that it conformed exactly to our approved standards in every respect.

That included rim tolerance, hardness of primer etc etc as does the UK MoD spec HXP.

So if you are using this stuff then from that, it equates to the usual old UK MoD spec stuff...............

Unfortunately, all the .303 Prvi available here seems to be 180gr. soft point, which is not quite as reliable in the feed cycle for some weapons. Still good ammo, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I don't know if therre were two specifications for HXP ammo. One for the uk MoD and another for everyone else but that made for us was made to the tighest of controls and specification. It had to undergo exectly the same checks and controls as our previous RG and RL stuff. Which it did and there were few if any complaints about its performance.

We also used it in our machine guns too

We also had a huge (42,000?) round batch of Privi .303 1978 Mk7z ammo inspected, tested, analysed and approved in order to use it in Vickers guns. We still use some. And the Government Scientist who did the tests for us said that it conformed exactly to our approved standards in every respect.

That included rim tolerance, hardness of primer etc etc as does the UK MoD spec HXP.

So if you are using this stuff then from that, it equates to the usual old UK MoD spec stuff...............

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The HXP I have, has a flat base solid lead core bullet and is loaded with Olin Ball type powder, its boxer primed not berdan primed.
Near as I can tell its identical to Winchester "Whitebox" generic .303 ammunition.
Is there a type of MkVIIz that does not in fact use the MkVII bullet?
Only British military .303 loaded with other than cordite that I've heard of was MkVIIz and MkVIIIz.

Also I've found that HXP ammo was produced under contract for the British government in the 80's but this appears to have been 7.62 NATO rather than .303.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alfred

Also I've found that HXP ammo was produced under contract for the British government in the 80's but this appears to have been 7.62 NATO rather than .303.

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I certainly have HXP brass in .303 dated from 73 and I think the last date I have of HXP is 86.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strangely Brown

I certainly have HXP brass in .303 dated from 73 and I think the last date I have of HXP is 86.

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Not much call for .303 in British service about that time, though I did see some photos of British troops carrying both the 7.62 BREN Guns and unaltered .303 BREN guns during the 80's, both gunners side by side during some operation.
I would think the British had more than enough .303 ammo in temperature controled storage, but use of the MkVII bullet at that late date might have raised eyebrows at the UN.

There are of course WW2 surplus .303 rifles in action every day in far flung corners of the world, and Vickers Guns are also still to be found.
The Indian Ordnance factory still manufactures MkVIIz ammunition for military contracts, and probably has a few Vickers and Bren Guns still in the original caliber.
Greek Powder and Cartridge would have had no shortage of customers other than the British.

If Radway Green stopped .303 production in the mid seventies they may have sold off remaining equipment to Greece.
PS
Just found a site that has Winchester WW2 rejected ammo found in a US Ordnance depot, story is this ammo, rejected by British Inspectors, was stored for use by US Coast Guard that had been issued Ross rifles.
The boxes are marked 174 grain "Full Patch" no mention of the MkVII bullet, so its likely this was the same solid core bullet used by the HXP ammo.

Greek HXP cases are not the same as Winchester cases, the HXP cases on average are 20 grains heavier than the Winchester cases and the rim of the Winchester is more rounded on the outer edge than the HXP cases.

Rim thickness varies with lot number for both make cases with the HXP cases having slightly thicker rims on average. (call it a tie)

I cleaned all 500 HXP cases I got from Brian, measured them for thinning in the web area, weighed each case and uniformed the primer pockets and flash holes. I can assure you the Greek HXP cases are nothing remotely like a Winchester case.

The HXP brass is light years ahead in quality and strength compared to the Winchester .303 cases. On the flip side of this I have used Winchester 30-30 cases for over thirty years and never had a single problem, BUT the .303 Winchester cases I have fell apart after three reloads.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6195-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6196-1.jpg

After weighing the HXP cases they were segregated by year and weight and placed in plastic bags and boxes ready for reloading.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6203-1.jpg

The only thing in common to both the HXP cases and the Winchester cases I have is they are the same .303 caliber.

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the HXP cases on average are 20 grains heavier than the Winchester cases and the rim of the Winchester is more rounded on the outer edge than the HXP cases.

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And your cases are about thirty years apart in date of manufacture, one being from recent commercial manufacture, the other from WW2 era surplus machinery once used for military contracts.

I have an old commercial krag cartridge here whos rim is from .003 to .004 thicker than more recent production cases.

Commercial sporting rimmed ammo had thicker rims than much of the more recent production. Somewhere around here I have results of measuring the rims of a number of manufacturers, rim thickness usually at the max .064 or occasionally thicker by a few thou.

The .30-30 is a much lower pressure cartridge and rifles in that chambering aren't likely to have the generous headspace the Enfield is so well known for.
About the only things the two have in common is they are rimmed tapered cases. Might as well compare the 7.62X39 to the 7.62X25.

Winchester branded ammo can vary greatly in quality. I've had some that split lengthwise and the same type bought a year later that functioned perfectly.

I don't use Winchester cases any way I use Remington and have had no problems with those despite the thin rim, because I obtained a No.3 bolt head to get very a close head gap.

PS
Cartridge cases are not made to a single unalterable specification, Winchester Palma Match .308 cases weigh far less than other cases of the type, even other Winchester .308 cases.

There are variations over the years for one reason or another. On average a lighter case means more powder space and lower pressure for the same velocity.
External dimension must be very nearly the same, but internal dimensions are up to the load development department, to make the best use of available propellants and projectiles.


Also I just checked one of my Winchester "WW Super .303 British" cases, the rim looks nothing like the rounded rim of your cases.
Aside from the headstamp this rim is identical to that of the HXP case you've pictured.

Theres a pretty detailed breakdown of the HXP .303 on this thread.
Surplusrifleforum.com • View topic - A look inside: .303 Greek HXP-71 ammunition
With plenty of big pictures like a certain someone likes to cover threads with, but these are informative.

More info
Carteach0: .303 British, cases before and after firing, comparison
Take notice of the visible difference in the relief cut above the rim, the two cartridges bear the same headstamp and year.
This suggests worn and rebuilt WW2 surplus machinery.

Figured I might as well add this
From a site discussing the various chamberings of the strengthened "Big Bore" Winchester rifles.

Quote:

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Let's assume the strength of the brass is the limiting factor in max pressures. Then consider that the area of a cartridge's base increases by the square and the circumference of the case increases in a linear fashion. The circumference of the case, together with case wall thickness, determines the cross sectional area of the brass available to resist the pressure. Thus the larger diameter case has less brass per unit of base area to contain pressure and so the larger diameter case will fail at a lower pressure than the smaller case.

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The smaller diameter case puts less stress on the brass.
What I'd figured but this guy explained it well.

OK gang I think it’s time to let this one go. We have wandered way off topic here. The original title of the thread is “Enfield Headspace Issue” not “Here’s everything I think I know about 303 brass”. This thread was originally started back on 2007 and the question was answered back then. For NC Xplorer the correct answer to his question should be “take your rifle and reloads to a competent gunsmith and have them checked over”. Diagnosing issues like this one over the internet without so much as a photo of the items in question is almost impossible.
I don’t wish to lock this thread however I also won’t accept a rebuttal to this post. In honesty there is so much information on headspace available I don’t think anything of further value can be added to this thread.