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just why is a loaded cartridge and bullet called 'ball'?
If thats a carry over from musketry its not particularly logical, although I concede that a box of bullets is not accurate as a bullet is the projectile, and calling them cartridges is not either as that plainly refers to the brass body, thus these two would be ambiguous. This sort of logic would also negate using the term 'ball'.
The term ball is indeed a carryover, or so I've been told.
One thing I read - not sure if it's correct though - it's from the French term "balle", i.e. bullet.
In the old days when American colonials were fighting the British which we “never ever” do anymore our American soldiers were issued “Ball” and powder. I’m guessing it’s a carry over BUT I do not want to start another war over it.
At the Battle of Lexington the British fired their muskets into the water at the feet of the Colonial Militia. The response history has recorded was "By God they're firing Ball! Let 'em have it boys!"
CMP Discussion Forum - Military "Ball" ammunition Nomenclature
I read once that in the U.S. Army it was to differentiate between a solid ball projectile and buck loads both of which were issued during the era of smooth bore muskets. some units issued buck and ball which was a ball and several smaller pellets.
early british cannon balls were made out of iron and and stacked in a brass triangle called a monkey. during exceptionally cold weather, the iron cannon balls and the brass monkey would contract at different rates causing the iron cannons balls to fall off the monkey.
hence the term, "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey"
You always know when it's been raining cats and dogs because the road is full of poodles. Told to me by son Robert, when he was about 5 or so!
Addressing that question directly, I'd say for the same reason a cartridge with a tracer bullet is called Tracer, or one with an armour piercing inciderary bullet is called... Well, you get the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJW NZ
Yes, I know I am stating the obvious, but sometimes the answer is the obvious overlooked.
too obvious for me, I don;t get it, armor piercing incinderary bullet is er AP?So far I haven't seen a loaded cartridge with a round ball in the front. must be too many blo fumes,, my brain cells have left town.
Would machine gun belts be called balls, or linked balls?
The way I heard it explained was that the 'common' cartridge, that is not armour piercing, tracer, indendiary or other special purpose was just called 'ball'. A hangover from the days when that was the common musket round...a 'ball'.
Too right. 'Ball Round'. Similarly a cartridge with a tracer bullet is a 'Tracer Round', etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterider
RJW NZ
One of your assumptions is incorrect, and that may be part of the cause of your confusion.
A small arms cartridge is a complete round. That is: a small-arms cartridge is made up of, first, a cartridge CASE; this is the container that holds all the other components together. And these are: the projectile (bullet), the propellant (fuel) usually called powder, and the ignition source for the propellant normally called a primer. This is a cartridge, every knowledgeable book or publication that I have read, that refers to SA Ammunition,, this is how the word is used.
Some sources: there are quite a number, but I will give you just a few. The first I picked up, is the “Description and Rules for the Management of the, U.S. Magazine Rifle, Model of 1903, Caliber .30” the revised edition of April, 02, 1909, US War Dept. On page 43, this manual states, “The Caliber .30 Ball Cartridge, fig 143, consists of the case, primer, charge of smokeless powder and bullet.”
I have three editions of “TM 9-1900, Ammunition General”, the July 42, June 43 and June 56. They all state about the same. From the 1942 edition, Chapter 1, Section 1, Par.41, pg.26, “Cartridge, general—A round of small-arms ammunition is known as a cartridge. In general it consists of a bullet, a propelling charge, a primer, and a cartridge case, made into a unit assembly.” The 1943 edition, on page 54 states the same thing. The 1956 edition puts it slightly different. Chapter II, Section 1, par.40, Cartridges. “A cartridge of the small arms type may consist of a bullet to which a cartridge case is crimped. The cartridge case is fitted with a primer and contains a propelling charge. A cartridge is known as a round of small arms ammunition.”
I also have two editions of “TM 9-1990, Small-Arms Ammunition”, the May 42 and the Sept. 47. From: the 1942 edition, from Sect.II, Par.7, pg.5: “A round of small-arms ammunition is called a cartridge. As a complete round, the cartridge contains all the components necessary to fire the weapon once. In general these are the cartridge case, primer, propelling charge and bullet”. In the 1947 edition, Chapter 2, Sect 1, par.44a pg.53 it states, “In most types of small-arms ammunition, a cartridge consists of a cartridge case, a primer, propelling charge, and bullet. Instead of a bullet, shot cartridges and shotgun shells contain shot.”
From: “Elements of Ammunition”, by Major Theodore C. Ohart, Ord. Dept. Army of the US, copyright, 1946, Part II, Chapter 4, Section 10, pg 78. “The usual components of the complete round of small-arms ammunition, called a cartridge are:” then Maj. Ohart, goes on to list the bullet, the case, propellant powder and primer and their uses.
From: ”Elements of Armament Engineering” Department of Ordnance, United States Military Academy, West Point, New York 1958-59,, a USMA text book. Chapter 11, SA Ammunition, Section 11-2, Par 1, pg. 11-1: “A cartridge under our present military meaning is a complete round of ammunition for a firearm.”
From: “The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Ammunition” by Ian V. Hogg, copyright 1985, page 72. “CARTRIDGE That part of a complete round of ammunition which forms the propelling charge; also, and particularly in small arms ammunition, an alternative term for the complete round—cap, case, charge and bullet.” ‘Small arms ammunition’, is the key word in this definition.
Also from the UK, “Ammunition for the Land Battle” Copyright 1991, By P R Courtney-Green, Royal Military Collage of Science, Shrivenham, UK. From the Glossary of Ammunition Terms, pg. 208, under cartridge: “(1) A cased quantity of propellant complete with its own means of ignition.” This is referring to larger ammo than SA, such as artillery ammo. Then,, “(2) A compete round of fixed or semi-fixed ammunition.”
Right now I can not find my “British Text Book of Small Arms”, if someone has a copy and see what this book has as a definition of cartridge.
And last, from: TM 9-1305-200, “Small-Arms Ammunition”, dated 14 June 1961, Section II, Section 3, Definitions, par.a, Cartridge. “A complete assembly, consisting of all the components necessary to fire a weapon once; i.e., the cartridge case, primer, propellant, and bullet or shot.”
Now for some exceptions to the rules: not all cartridges contain propellants. An example of some, Dummy Rounds for function testing of small arms or marksmanship training and/or as a training aid. And I am sure there are others. Also none of these cartridges will have a live primer or some, even a primer.
Another exception: not all cartridges have projectiles, however many do have wads of one type or another. The types of cartridges that do not have projectiles are, launching cartridges for grenades, flares and others objects. Another projectile-less cartridge is the blank, some with wads and a slight crimp, some will just have their mouth crimped all the way over. And there are the activating cartridge, these start engines, erect antenna, eject objects from aircraft and many other uses. And I am sure I have not covered all the exceptions.
A cartridge is a complete round, a cartridge CASE is just one part of a complete cartridge. No mater what the round is intended for,, the first word in the nomenclature of that round is: Cartridge; then it will go on with, ball, tracer, blank, or what ever the use is.
45B20
My wife was very amused at a French open competition when a helpful Frenchman said I needed a better lube to grease my balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by louthepou
Patrick