Can FFF be used in rifles? I have had conflicking opinion. If so would you reduce the load? thank you.
Printable View
Can FFF be used in rifles? I have had conflicking opinion. If so would you reduce the load? thank you.
I use 60 grains 2f for live fire and 65grains 3f for blanks. I have fired 3f live with 55 grains, with no illeffect.
Dave:
What caliber is the rifle?
Generally a lot of people as a rule use 10% less 3Fg powder compared to 2Fg. That is because 3Fg being finer grained burns faster generating more pressure in the breech. The upside of that is that there is generally less fouling using 3Fg.
Since smaller caliber barrels have greater tensile strength, they can better handle the stronger pressure created by the ignition of 3Fg powder.
The different burn rate between the two powder sizes will also affect accuracy. I find it best to work up the load in 5 grain increments until you find the best accuracy. If you have both grain sizes, you can then compare your rifle's perfect load with each grain size and then stick with what works best.
That is the great thing about this passion of ours is that you can work up your loads on the fly while at the range.
Good luck!
I shot 60 grs. of 3F for years in my 54 caliber Sharon Rifle Barrel Co. which I put together from a kit. Our club only had a 50 yard range for years, and the above load was extremely accurate and shot very clean.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../10xft04-1.jpg
whoops forgot to add that those loads were for .58 cal 1858, 1861, 1863 enfields and springfields that I have.
I use Swiss powders Nos 2, 3 and 4 (FFF, FF, 1 1/2 F) as follows:
Finer powders produce harder fouling, but there is a certain trade-off by using less powder.
Enfield 1858 (military), 100 meters, 48 gn FFF (a very light load for a very heavy bullet). "Lobs" the bullet into the target.
But for 200, 300 meters, where you really need more energy to avoid howitzer-like trajectories, 68 gn FF. The same load of FFF produces too much hard fouling for military competitions where you are not allowed to clean between shots.
Sharps Long Rang 45-70 (sporting) at all distances 68 gn FFF (as much as I can pack into the case). OK because you are allowed to clean between shots. If you do not, the 2nd shot may be OK, but the 3rd shot really falls off.
Mauser 71 (military). No cleaning allowed. Use 68 gn No 4 (1 1/2 F) for soft fouling. Needs plenty of lube. Faster powders bend the system (single side locking lug) and reduce accuracy.
That's my personal choice. Hope it helps!
Patrick
Thank you guys! I only use the rifle for hunting and have had a hard time reloading, can load 2nd. with effort, 3rd is impossible to get bullet down bore without pounding (I am not as strong as I used to be). Rifle is a 54 cal. Thompson center, I think called a New Englander. Been using Pyrodex, have tried defferent bullet types. I now have some Amer. Powder Co. stuff which is supposed to be non-fouling. If so, I will be able to experiment without swabbing every 2-3 shots.
Thanks guys. I only use rifle for hunting deer. It is 54 cal Thompson Center 'New Englander'. Have had much trouble reloading, #2 goes bullet goes down with much effort, #3 is impossible without pounding down. Have tried different bullets, using Pyrodex. I have now aquired some Amer Powder Co. substitute which is supossed to be non-fouling. If so, I can now do allot of experimenting without swabbing bore every couple of shots.
I think you are fighting a losing battle in trying to avoid swabbing the bore for a patch&ball rifle between (multiple) shots.
In fact I would suggest you go take a look as some very fine rifled-musket designs (generally Enfield/Springfield) if that's your goal. They were designed for that very purpose--repeated/no-clean firing--and can be very accurate at longer ranges using the Lyman old-style/thin-skirt Minnie ball. [Ask any N-SSA shooter]
my springfields/enfields usually can get 8 shots off before the barrel gets too fouled up to get balls down with difficulty. Wish someone would make one of those "cleaner/scraper" bullets issued in the civil war.
When I was shooting in our club shoots I used a concoction called "moosemilk", which to the best of my recollection was 2 ounces 409 Cleaner, 2 ounces water soluble oil, and 2 ounces of hydrogen peroxide in enough water to make a quart. I shot roundball and patch only, and wet the patch with the moosemilk. Each time the rifle was loaded the patch cleaned the bore. On our fun day shoots I have fired up to 40 rounds with no cleaning and no loss of accuracy using the moosemilk.
That 2-3:1 Crisco/beeswax lube (lots of it around dipped/hardened around the grooves) resulted in never overly-stiff ramming while in rapidfire/stakecutting, Matt. (Though the barrel getting & staying hotter`n a firecracker probably helped there too.) :dancingbanana:
Well this new powder replacement is suposed to go 10,000 shots w/o cleaning. (it is still corrosive) I know true BP guys turn noses up at these type substitutes but for hunting I want practical, without going to an inline gun. I think these defeat the purpose/spirt of the "muzzle loading" season.
Thanks again.
Why would taking 15 seconds to run a saliva-soaked wet patch up&down the barrel between rounds affect hunting? Once you're into the patched-ball game, you ain't doing rapid fire of any kind, not no how. :slap:
The loads I mentioned for the 1858 Enfield in my previous posting will got for 18 shots without cleaning - they have to, for 15 shot competitions with sighters, or 18 shots and three eliminated. BUT it is all very lube-sensitive. I tried several before getting one that works well - and that is no longer available.
Before that I did well with beeswax and lanolin. Mix to suit your climate, but keep a tight lid on the can, otherwise it hardens slowly over months. Or just mix what you need for the next 4 weeks. American recipes often refer to "Crisco". I do not know what that is, but assume it is some king of refined cooking fat, however it's marketed. Basically, beeswax + a non-mineral oil or grease. The aim is simply to keep the fouling soft - you cannot prevent fouling.
And be warned: there appears to be a certain amount of moonshine and snake-oil involved in discussions about patch and bullet lubricants. Better find some local BP shooters and ask them about their experiences!
And that brings me to the last point. ALL powders produce residues (i.e. fouling) - even nitro powders - although some may well produce a bit less. That is a chemical inevitability. So I'm sceptical of any claim that a certain powder produces no fouling. Slight exaggeration maybe?
Patrick
American "Crisco" = English "Spry" = solid/white hydrogenated cooking vegetable oil (shortening) which has the consistancy/appearance of lard at room temperature.
I also tried Vaseline as a substitute, but it seems solid cooking shortening is better, lasts forever, and is dirt cheap.
It would be tricky to make a scraper for normal rifling, as it would need to have the rifling pattern cut into it to be effective. But I have heard of shooters of the Whitworth rifle, which has a hexagonal bore, making scrapers out of stamped copper or brass sheet. Simply placed between powder and bullet, but they would have to be a tight fit to have any effect. Since the idea was tried and discarded in the 19th century I imagine the result was not worth the effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Wolff
Patrick
thats a good point... Was just a thought that wasnt thought through alot. I know the only reason I know of the fouling prob after 8-9 rounds, is I practiced alot firing 3 aimed shots in a minute (got it down to between 1 min and 1:08 with my CW rifles, and is usually the 4th set that needs to be cleaned before attempting it again. I never tried the home made concoctions, and will give them a try this weekend with my 1859 berdan model sharps.
Matt, there is a simple dodge to achieve a "semi-scraper" effect. If you are firing a flat-based bullet, place a piece of lubricant-saturated wad (that's high-falutin' technospeak for a wax-soaked piece of card punched out of a beermat) in the muzzle and start it, then place your bullet and drive both together down the muzzle until they are seated. This scrapes a lot of crud DOWN the barrel, so the seating point of the bullet is raised somewhat, The crud is then shot out with the bullet. Not as good a proper wipe, but saves time!
BTW what is a CW rifle? Clockwork?
Patrick
thats a good idea too.. CW = Civil War abbreviated lol
HAvent had hard loading except for getting the patched RB started.
Can you just wipe the barrel with lubed patch using the ramrod with the cylindrical cleaning jag? How does it feel, jerky resistance or slow moderate force all the way down?
Are you original owner? Did the barrel feel smooth during cleaning.
Maybe you need to do a Hoppe's or Shooters' Choice cleaning, then re-season the barrel.
For quick reload, get the LARGE size "Zig-Zag" cigarete papers and get from hobby store/ hardware, the proper OD brass modeling tube "KE Mfg" that give you the basis for a paper cartridge. fill with charge your using , twist-off end and drop down, ram PB home cap and shoot. For hunting I use the RED quick-loader, try those.
If needed google, "Log Cabin Shoppe" out of Lodi, Ohio. All they deal with is BP and he was a TC warrenty station. not sure now.