W&S question

I've seen a few W&S rifles, owned three now, and seen several for sale on the CMP auctions. I've noted the rifles come typically with plugged holes or unplugged holes and I've been trying to figure out if there that fact relates directly to their usage. Most of the late 900's and 1 mil rifles I've seen are unplugged while most of the earlier rifles I've seen have the holes plugged. My question to those of you who might know is this;

Do we then assume these later rifles were never assembled as W&S snipers?

My thoughts are these later examples never left the factory complete and were stockpiled as recievers. My experiences are limited that is why I'm here but the three 1million number rifles I've personally handled were all unplugged carrying 1941 or 1942 barrels. I'm assuming these were stored as recievers and pulled out and assembled at a later date but I'm not an expert that is why I'm asking someone who might know.

All of the earlier examples I've run into have had the holes plugged aside from two, I'm assuming these rifles were the ones sent back in the late 1920's and had the bases removed. When the bases were removed the holes were either plugged or the bases cut off? Honestly not sure but some of the ones I've seen show some crude work, that is why I'm wondering if the bases were actually cut off.

Rifle 1013948 came to me unplugged with a 4-42 barrel and I put it back to its W&S configuration. Recently I picked up a 935k Reciever and a 927K rifle with a 6-27 barrel both with plugged holes. I'm just trying to figure out if it might be possible that the two I currently own might have actually been assembled as W&S rifles. I'm not sure if either would have made it to the front but sold the 1 million number I had believing it was never actually assembled.

Thanks.

I have to ask. What is a W&S Rifle and what holes are plugged? :dunno::dunno:

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Originally Posted by Doug Rammel

I have to ask. What is a W&S Rifle and what holes are plugged? :dunno::dunno:

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W&S is an abbreviation for Warner & Swazey, a manufacturer of a particular early optical sight. The holes, 3 of them, are located on the left side of the reciever for attaching the fixed base with screws.


HTH,

Emri

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Originally Posted by geberl

I've seen a few W&S rifles, owned three now, and seen several for sale on the CMP auctions. I've noted the rifles come typically with plugged holes or unplugged holes and I've been trying to figure out if there that fact relates directly to their usage. Most of the late 900's and 1 mil rifles I've seen are unplugged while most of the earlier rifles I've seen have the holes plugged. My question to those of you who might know is this;

Do we then assume these later rifles were never assembled as W&S snipers?

My thoughts are these later examples never left the factory complete and were stockpiled as recievers. My experiences are limited that is why I'm here but the three 1million number rifles I've personally handled were all unplugged carrying 1941 or 1942 barrels. I'm assuming these were stored as recievers and pulled out and assembled at a later date but I'm not an expert that is why I'm asking someone who might know.

All of the earlier examples I've run into have had the holes plugged aside from two, I'm assuming these rifles were the ones sent back in the late 1920's and had the bases removed. When the bases were removed the holes were either plugged or the bases cut off? Honestly not sure but some of the ones I've seen show some crude work, that is why I'm wondering if the bases were actually cut off.

Rifle 1013948 came to me unplugged with a 4-42 barrel and I put it back to its W&S configuration. Recently I picked up a 935k Reciever and a 927K rifle with a 6-27 barrel both with plugged holes. I'm just trying to figure out if it might be possible that the two I currently own might have actually been assembled as W&S rifles. I'm not sure if either would have made it to the front but sold the 1 million number I had believing it was never actually assembled.

Thanks.

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Rifles through S/N 93xxxx were indeed fully assembled as W&S rifles. That's documented. Whether or not they made it to France in time to see action is problematical.

Rifles in the S/N 10xxxxx range were never assembled as W&S rifles. The war ended about the time the receivers were ready to be assembled. The holes were plugged and the rifles were issued as service rifles.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

The 1 million rifles were assembled in late 1918 then and not kept as recievers?
I've not seen one with a barrel pre WWII but as I said my sample of W&S rifles is limited. I had assumed they would have been used right away but the only ones I've seen had late barrels on them.
They were plugged when assembled? As I stated above the ones I've seen weren't? Trying to figure out if there was an SOP to plug them and someone felt lazy the day some of them were put together. I do thank you for the above information, would like some clarification on these questions however.

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Originally Posted by geberl

The 1 million rifles were assembled in late 1918 then and not kept as recievers?
I've not seen one with a barrel pre WWII but as I said my sample of W&S rifles is limited. I had assumed they would have been used right away but the only ones I've seen had late barrels on them.
They were plugged when assembled? As I stated above the ones I've seen weren't? Trying to figure out if there was an SOP to plug them and someone felt lazy the day some of them were put together. I do thank you for the above information, would like some clarification on these questions however.

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I have no information to indicate when the S/N 101xxxx W&S receivers were assembled into complete rifles. If I had to guess, I'd say that it was no later than 1928. After the war ended, the Army had more W&S rifles than they knew what to do with. So, there was no compelling reason to hold the late unassembled receivers in reserve.

J.B.

p.s.,

After composing the above, I looked in my notes and found where I had recorded W&S S/N 1013657 with S.A./10-27 barrel. So, it looks like I guessed right.

I know we are only dealing with one example, 1013657, but in my mind we are now looking at the possibility the 1.01 numbers were held as spare recievers post war. The late 1920's it the time when the W&S rifes were all reworked back to standard configuration. It would not make sense for an already converted 1.01 to be sent in to be reworked along with the scoped W&S rifles, unless it was a spare reciever that was finally converted. The above mentioned 1.013 example could have just worn the bore out, poor scientific theory to use one example as the rule, but that rifle causes more speculation in my mind. I understand we are dealing with no absolutes and scarcity of information on the subject but this rifle points me into a circle. I fully accept and understand the surplus of W&S rifles post war and don't see the point of keeping these late recievers as spare parts but this one example has me puzzled. I guess I'll need to wait on a dozen more to surface to understand a little more.

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Originally Posted by geberl

I know we are only dealing with one example, 1013657, but in my mind we are now looking at the possibility the 1.01 numbers were held as spare recievers post war. The late 1920's it the time when the W&S rifes were all reworked back to standard configuration. It would not make sense for an already converted 1.01 to be sent in to be reworked along with the scoped W&S rifles, unless it was a spare reciever that was finally converted. The above mentioned 1.013 example could have just worn the bore out, poor scientific theory to use one example as the rule, but that rifle causes more speculation in my mind. I understand we are dealing with no absolutes and scarcity of information on the subject but this rifle points me into a circle. I fully accept and understand the surplus of W&S rifles post war and don't see the point of keeping these late recievers as spare parts but this one example has me puzzled. I guess I'll need to wait on a dozen more to surface to understand a little more.

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The highest serial number M1913 that was fitted for a M1913 scope was SA 119780 to my knowledge, and there is a possibility that the scope MAY not have been a M1913. There is SA 1366792 with an M1913, which may have been an aftermarket install.:bow:

The attached plot shows the known (to me) M1908 and M1913 rifles. Note the fake M1913 sold on GB with a matching M1913 scope serial numbered to the rifle. The rifle even had a SA 9-09 bbl, which should have been a dead give away. I hope no one I know bought that turkey.:madsmile:

Jim:cool:

Jim,

Saw the fake on gunbroker, pick up on that one right away, see some number blocks I recognize as heavy concentrations, 352's, 935's, 1013-1015, early 600-630, early 700's but didn't realize the large block in the late 700's and the numbers above 1015 numbers. I'm assuming you pulled alot of this from the srs books, have them but haven't finished compiling the data into usable spreadsheets. Do you have any post 900K numbers that are real world numbers with barrel dates? Just wondering if you might be able to throw a date or two on top of the one John quoted. Ed told me you had a pile of data, I didn't realize it included the W&S rifles or I'd have asked you about it a while ago.

By the way good weekend in Kin.

SA 990718 has a SA 1-18 bbl date which I don't believe to be correct from the preponderance of data, but SA 936682 has a SA 7-18 bbl, which I believe is correct. SA 928236 has a barrel date of SA 7-18, which also seems to be correct. I have other rifles above these serial numbers but I don't have their barrel dates.:crying:

SA 936682 has a shallow thumb groove carved into the stock which makes the offset scope shooting more comfortable, but which has not one single stamp, proof, or inspector's mark on the entire stock. It and its immediate SN neighbors were probably some of the last M1913 rifles sent to France. It is also the highest serial number M1913 equipped rifle I have listed with what appears to be its matching barrel. If anyone has a higher serial number with a correctly dated barrel, I would like to have the data, please (zevron@intrstar.net).:bow:

I might mention that a significant number of the rifles I have listed are observed/owned rifles not listed in SRS. I sincerely thank those who have contributed to the database.:D

Based on the data I possess, I agree with JB.:yikes:

I might also pose two questions:
1. Has anyone ever seen a M1908 rifle that has been plugged?:dunno:
2. If not, what happened to those rifles?:rolleyes:

Jim:cool:

Jim,

Were the 352 numbers and earlier examples not originally 1908 rifles? They were reworked I've seen two plugged examples for sale on the CMP auctions, I was under the impression that everything of W&S type was refitted to standard configuration in the late 1920's.


Sounds like we are seeing the same things on the rifles later than 936K being not available with correct barrel dates or more importantly with anything predating 1926. This does point to spare parts for the 1.01 and high 900 numbers between 1918 and the scrapping of the W&S design.

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Originally Posted by Jim Tarleton

I might also pose two questions:
1. Has anyone ever seen a M1908 rifle that has been plugged?:dunno:
2. If not, what happened to those rifles?:rolleyes:

Jim:cool:

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(1) Yes, several.

(2) They were plugged and converted to regular service rifles.

J.B.

I think the M1908's were retrofitted for regular issue service much earlier that 1920, as I have seen no photo of a M1908 in the AEF. The M1913 followed suite after the war (1926?). I had just never seen a plugged M1908 rifle, but now I know they do exist. I need to get out more.

Jim

Sorry, John. I must be a slower typer than are you.

Jim

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Originally Posted by geberl

The 1 million rifles were assembled in late 1918 then and not kept as recievers?
I've not seen one with a barrel pre WWII but as I said my sample of W&S rifles is limited. I had assumed they would have been used right away but the only ones I've seen had late barrels on them.
They were plugged when assembled? As I stated above the ones I've seen weren't? Trying to figure out if there was an SOP to plug them and someone felt lazy the day some of them were put together. I do thank you for the above information, would like some clarification on these questions however.

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A WWII barrel on a S/N 10xxxxx W&S rifle is a replacement.

I have four S/N 10xxxxx W&S rifles in my data base and three of the four have 1927-dated barrels. (The fourth has an HS 1944-dated barrel). This is entirely consistent with what I know about operations at Springfield Armory. The receivers were pulled from stores, plugged, and assembled in late 1927.

J.B.

John,

Glad to see the other numbers with 27 dates, think this problem is solved, just haven't seen anything published, that is why I asked originally. I had assumed these 1mil range W&S rifles were spare parts, but when they made it as complete rifles is where I was mixed up. The 40's dates were puzzling, my original thoughts were the rifles were all standard configuration in the late 20's but couldn't find reference to one with a 20's barrel. The information both of you have provided have really helped my understanding, I thank you both for a most interesting conversation.