reloading 303 british and case separation

i have a Savage Enfield no4 mk1*. i necked sized a handful of Federal brass. i used 150 gr. bullets (Serbian/Yugo?) and 40 to 42 grains IMR 4985. the first reloads were hard to chamber (from their first firing in same rifle). one of the 42 grain loads ended in a case head separation and left the brass in the chamber. i got it out using a removal tool from midwayusa.com, but had to take the bolt out and use wood dowel to "pound" it in and out. it worked that way not using the bolt and it's extractor. after examining the bad brass and showing it to friends. i am now guessing that the chamber is loose and long and the brass stretched and expanded beyond ability and split open. examining other first fired brass from same rifle shows a ring just past the head where the brass starts to thin. i suspect these will split open on the next firing...if there is one. anybody got any ideas on how to safely shoot this rifle...any tricks?
thanks, great forum! :bow:
Leeroy151@yahoo.com

Over in the Lee-Enfield specific forums of this site and the attached Jouster forums there have been several long running and not always objective discussions of this subject, the Lee-Enfield rifle and its characteristics and the obstacles you run into when trying to get long case life when reloading.
I will post several links to get you started.


Inherent Weakness
Long discussion recently closed due to degeneration of the discussion.

Case life in #4 rifle rebarreled to 7.62
Active thread.

Cases and Enfields and Lube ...Oh My!!


British pressure and a soup sandwich.


Just remember to wear your wading boots because it gets deep due to the emotional trauma caused to some posters. After you read a lot of this you will have to heave it into the air and see what parts blow away in the wind. Like the Clint Eastwood movie you have to figure out "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly".

After posting the links I will add a little of my own summary.

1. The US SAAMI standards for factory loaded ammo and factory new brass are not a close match for the head to shoulder location as manufactured in the #4 rifle chambers.
2. Most #4 rifles do not produce a fired case shoulder that looks like the US SAAMI loaded round. When you examine the British chamber drawing vs the US cartridge drawing you can see the differences. The fired shoulder has a different shape and is further from the head than the US unfired brass.
3. The US manufactured brass is also much smaller in the head than the British rifle chambers. US brass is about .451 to .452 in diameter. My chamber measures .460. US SAMMI and the British drawing for the chambers are both .462 with +.002 added tolerance to give a chamber at the rear that is .464 in diameter. With .451 brass you can get an excessive pressure ring expansion of .013. With normal pressure and thin brass this is way too much clearance.
4. Many of the the Lee-Enfields have excessive headspace for US and other brass. These rifles work fine for battle field use since the brass is never reloaded.
5. The following causes a lot of reaction from Lee-Enfield lovers but the actions are a bit prone to being springy and momentarily stretch under firing pressure.
6. Lee-Enfield chambers are sometimes not polished smooth and tend to grab the brass.
7. The Lee-Enfields are mostly older rifles and many have seen hard use and have been through factory over haul. The bolt head may not be well fitted to the bolt body resulting in some looseness of the threads at the bolt head.

The resulting effect is:
You get poor brass to chamber fit in a worn springy action.
With the normal pressures of factory ammo and thinner US brass you can have case heads fail when factory ammo is fired the first time. A large percentage of loaded rounds will fail by the 3rd reload unless some extra loading techniques are used.
The links that I attached above show the discussions of various means to extend case life. In my opinion most of the damage to new cases is done when they are fired the first time as factory ammunition. I use .303 brass to form cases to use in the Dutch M95 Mannlicher turnbolt action chambered for the 6.5X53R Mannlicher cartridge. This action is a contemporary of the Lee-Enfield.
However in this front locking action with the tighter Mannlicher chambers I get NO case head separations using the same brass that produces very short life in the Lee-Enfield.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leeroy151

i have a Savage Enfield no4 mk1*. i necked sized a handful of Federal brass. i used 150 gr. bullets (Serbian/Yugo?) and 40 to 42 grains IMR 4985. the first reloads were hard to chamber (from their first firing in same rifle). one of the 42 grain loads ended in a case head separation and left the brass in the chamber. i got it out using a removal tool from midwayusa.com, but had to take the bolt out and use wood dowel to "pound" it in and out. it worked that way not using the bolt and it's extractor. after examining the bad brass and showing it to friends. i am now guessing that the chamber is loose and long and the brass stretched and expanded beyond ability and split open. examining other first fired brass from same rifle shows a ring just past the head where the brass starts to thin. i suspect these will split open on the next firing...if there is one. anybody got any ideas on how to safely shoot this rifle...any tricks?
thanks, great forum! :bow:
Leeroy151@yahoo.com

---

Sounds like your head gap clearance is way out there.
I fixed my Savage by getting a No. 3 Bolthead back in the day when they were cheap and still available.
My fired cases can now pass for unfired cases at casual inspection, and I haven't lost a case to separations since then.

In my opinion rectifying loose headspace is the only real fix. Rimmed cartridges were not designed with headspacing off the shoulder in mind, and if the action is within safe limits for handloading full power loads fire forming to headspace on the shoulder shouldn't be necessary.

Light loads for the first firing might help.

The O-ring spacer idea has merit, but I couldn't use it even if I wanted to since my rifles are tight enough that theres no room for a spacer.

Some brands of brass have thicker rims, but you'll have to wade through a lot of posts to find out which, and none I've seen recommended are available here.

I use PRVI cases in my 2 Savage LE`s. And use No. 2 boltheads. The cases shows little stretchmarks over the rim but i`ve found these marks also on F and LB Enfields. I tested how long the cases live is by always using the same 10 cases and complete sizing every 3rd load and i can say that after more than 12 reloading processes the cases has no problem there. The only thing is that the caseneck is getting softer but thats a normal sign.

Gunner

First thing check headspace, if the bolt is closing on a No go gauge, measure bolt head . it should have a number on the bolt head, even with this some peole cant get the correct ones so will remove material to gain requred headspace. bolt heads are numbered look for a thread on the SMLE section in the jouster forums, even with the max size bolt head if there is excessive head space this will mean a number of things, the action has stretched worst case, as this is scrap! check bolt lugs and recess in the action somebody might have had a fiddle, the chamber may have been increased due to a scratch etc i have seen this and was causing case seperation the same problem your having.

thanks for all the useful info.
i got off work this morning and took the bolt out of the Enfield and put a 22 cal brass brush on a drill and tried to clean the chamber a little. this was none too effective so i tore off some 0000? steel wool and made a steel wool "Qtip" and ran that in the chamber a little. then a 50 cal muzzleloader soft brush and the chamber looks much cleaner. i think i had a combination of patchy rust and cosmoline in there. kinda hard to see in the chamber completely. there appears to be a small depression on the lower left hand side of the chamber that had housed a little of that rust/cosmoline and maybe a faint ring of what could have been baked on cosmoline? near where the head separation has occured. anyway, i looks and feels better. gonna try some Hotshot ammo that midwayusa just got in...i'll let you know how it goes if anyone is interested.
thanks,
Lee

Leeroy
Let us know how it goes at the range.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leeroy151

thanks for all the useful info.
i got off work this morning and took the bolt out of the Enfield and put a 22 cal brass brush on a drill and tried to clean the chamber a little. this was none too effective so i tore off some 0000? steel wool and made a steel wool "Qtip" and ran that in the chamber a little. then a 50 cal muzzleloader soft brush and the chamber looks much cleaner. i think i had a combination of patchy rust and cosmoline in there. kinda hard to see in the chamber completely. there appears to be a small depression on the lower left hand side of the chamber that had housed a little of that rust/cosmoline and maybe a faint ring of what could have been baked on cosmoline? near where the head separation has occured. anyway, i looks and feels better. gonna try some Hotshot ammo that midwayusa just got in...i'll let you know how it goes if anyone is interested.
thanks,
Lee

---

If theres that much fouling build up you should be sure to clean the neck of the chamber throughly.
Build up at the neck can prevent proper expansion of the case mouth and greatly increase pressures.
I made a scrapper from brass tubing, copper tubing might be a better choice.
I cut slots in the tunbing and saw teeth in the open end. As fouling is scrapped out you can expand the end of the tube to get a better bite.
I noticed an immediate difference in the appearance of fired cases after cleaning the chamber neck.

This sort of fouling is a concretion of laquer ,resin, graphite, carbon, and atomized lead, so a brush can't do much, especially when its had decades to set up.

Cord wear of chambers can be dangerous, you'd usually see that on the right at the extractor cut.
A depression in the chamber near the base can allow a case to rupture, directing gas into the extractor recess of the bolt head fracturing it and blowing out extractor and other shards.

Bottom line:
1. A clean chamber.
2. Reduce headspace to SAAMI minimum (NOT British/Commonwealth military minimum).
3. Neck size only.
4. If possible, choose brass with thickest rims.

I haven't tried to O-ring method of fire-forming brass yet, but I will if I feel the need.

http://www.bdlltd.com/

Be advised that Brian Dick at BDL Ltd has NOS (new, old stock) unfitted #3 bolt heads for the No. 4 Lee Enfield rifle. He doesn't list them on his website, but he has (or did have) them.

hey y'all,
so, i went to the range with my two Enfields. me and the kid shot both and the latest job i did on the reloads worked better. the cartridges that had been shot in the Savage are a little hard to push into the chamber but otherwise did well. the cartridges shot in the BSA? Enfield chamber in both rifles equally well. accuracy was acceptable to me as a hunting rifle. we didn't shoot at paper, just a gallon jug, freehand at 100 yards. to reload i used 39 grains of IMR 4895, 150 grain FMJ pritsi partisan (sp?) and i neck sized using a Lee die set. last time i used 40 to 42 grains of IMR 4895 and i think that was a bit too much for the cases ran thru the Savage. this go round i didn't have any obvious case separation or swelling. i am thinking about backing off to 38 or maybe 37 grains IMR 4895, cause even at 39 grains the kick was pretty good.
any ideas guys?
thanks,
Lee