Smoothing up Garand trigger

I am interested in finding out the particulars of making a match trigger setup for my latest M1 Garand.

My question is what must be done to modify a trigger group for a better pull-off and less trigger pull. I have built a new rifle whose main function will be that of a shooter.

I have not read any material on this process of modification, so don't be afraid that I may carry some prejudice to this task. I have the trigger group disassembled, in front of me, and am ready to work on this, if someone will direct me.

Thanks in advance to all who read this and to any who take from their time to share their expertise.:wave:

This may be helpful...M1 Trigger...it goes along with this...Accurize The M1 Rifle

Mack...

You might also want to get The M1 Garand Complete Assembly Guide by Walt Kulick with Clint McKee. A section on National Match triggers is included.

The book is available from: http://www.fulton-armory.com/ , among other places.

HTH

Ben Hartley

in general,triggers isn't good things to mess with unless you know a lot of stuff.
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http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic...TOPIC_ID=43970
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Accurizing An M-1 Garand - Part III
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What causes my M1 Garand to fire on auto? [Archive] - THR
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AGI - The M-1 Garand Trigger Job

the NRA "Garand" booklet pub (the old one) has a semi-decent section on how to smooth up a Garand trigger. Smoothing will only take out any grittiness. It WILL NOT REDUCE PULL WEIGHT (although you might THINK the weight is less by a little bit).

Garands have a two-stage trigger that usualy is around 6.5 - 7.5 pounds TOTAL combined weight. This really ins't all that bad, although occasionally you will get one that is a little heavier.

To reduce trigger pull weight, YOU MUST reduce/hone the hammer hooks. Unfortunately, this is an also an excellent way to create a dangerous and somewhat hazardous trigger. There really isn't much more than a few strokes of an oilstone between a nice safe 4.75 - 5.0 trigger (I don't go below 4.75 total weight when I do trigger jobs) and a 3 pound trigger "machine gun" (and illegal for competition).

A good trigger job yields a nice 1.5 to 2 pound initial 1st stage slack pull, combined with a very crisp and positive 3+ pound second stage let off.

done correctly, this involves an initial "clean up" of all the typical mating surfaces to get things smoothed up. Then MANY disassemblies and reassemblies to get to the right point for total pull weight.

I have a couple triggers right now someone sent me, so might do some pictures (detailling the SMOOTHING process).

I've had Fulton Armory do NM trigger jobs for me with good results. Some reputable Armorers say that TG/Stock lock-up tension is a critical factor when match-prepping a trigger which means that they would require the entire rifle to be sent to them for a NM trigger job. Good luck with your shooter.

You can have an excellent,light and safe trigger by installing a new post-war GI hammer and trigger and hammer and trigger pins. It is best to have access to several of each hammer and trigger to mix and match so that you can be sure you have a set that provides full trigger contact on both hammer hooks. Lightly polish the new park off the contact surfaces with a sapphire nail file only if you know what you are doing, otherwise just let them wear in. Install a David Tubb CS hammer spring and an old style hammer plunger with wings. Lube hammer, trigger and sear hooks with Birchwood-Casey Moly dry lube. You'll like it and it will be safe and last a long time.

I honestly don't think you can get much below 6 pounds EVER with mixing/matching components only (from any era od pARTS).

In fact, I just completed a couple trigger jobs inclduding one UNIT which was from a collector grade HRA that was probably the nicest slickest trigger pull from any stock rifle I have ever run across (at least among those I have worked on). It was right at 6lbs total.

Likewise, I don't rely upon any lubes. done correctly, the trigger should be smooth and crisp dry as a bone (i do leave a little lube on the spring and inner housing to prevent rust).

Sir,

If I may give some advice. Performing a National Match Trigger Job should be taken slow, especially if you have not had the experience in armory work. It will take many sessions of disassembly and assembly. If you are following directions from some of the publications, please know that stoning the hammer is almost an art. IF you do it at the wrong angle or take too much material off, you will get a single stage trigger or a "tapper". At that point you no longer have a safe trigger and will not be able to predict when it fire. Another point, when I do NM modificatons to M1 or M14 triggers, I require to have the rifle to which the trigger assembly is to be mated. As you work on the trigger, you should consistantly install it in the rifle and check for pull weight. The lock-up tension does effect your trigger pull. If for some reason you would want an armorer to perform a NM trigger mod to your assembly, your rifle needs to go with it. Some say this is poopey, but I have been an armorer for over twenty years and I have learned from many mistakes.

The key is to take good parts, take your time and fit them together properly.Whatever you do, do not grease the hooks! Also remember, except for barrels and sights, there is no such thing as NM parts. We take good parts and perform National Match conditioning.

I have always said that I am an armorer, not a gunsmith. There is a big difference. If possible seek the advice of experienced armorers. They will be glad to help.

All my best,

Sights

I agree Sights, and having the entire weapon isn't a bad idea at all, but I, personally, have never found much variation in trigger geometry (pull weight) between mounted and unmounted triggers. I certainly usually double check by mounting up a unit to one of my own "tight" bedded rifles, but since I virtually always stop honing at a smidge under 5 pounds (still plenty nice and light considering a 3+lb first stage take-up), there is much less danger (as in zero) of going "under" safe/legal pull weight.

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Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno

I agree Sights, and having the entire weapon isn't a bad idea at all, but I, personally, have never found much variation in trigger geometry (pull weight) between mounted and unmounted triggers. I certainly usually double check by mounting up a unit to one of my own "tight" bedded rifles, but since I virtually always stop honing at a smidge under 5 pounds (still plenty nice and light considering a 3+lb first stage take-up), there is much less danger (as in zero) of going "under" safe/legal pull weight.

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Cheers.:beerchug:
Have a great 4th of July

Sights

Hugh,

I don't mean to be critical and maybe it is the way you describe it, but I've been trying to figure out what you mean by the 3 1/2 pound second stage trigger pull. Do you mean the second stage is that much heavier than the first stage? The reason I ask is because you already mentioned the lightest trigger pull you do is 4 3/4 lbs.

As to the trigger pull feeling not that much different in and out of a rifle - sometimes you may not feel much difference and sometimes there is a huge difference. A lot has to do with how much pressure is required to close the triggerguard. If it goes down tight from either from a tight wood stock or a glass bedding job, then the difference is much more significant. If the stock is pretty loose, then you usualy don't feel a whole lot of difference.

There are a couple more reasons to ensure you have the whole rifle when you do a trigger job. If the top of the trigger binds on the stock, that will change the trigger feel remarkably and usually for the bad. If you are dealing with commercial stocks, you may not realize the trigger pull will go full auto when put in a rifle if the stock distance between the receiver and trigger mech is too great as it has been on many commercial stocks in the past. A trigger can go light or heavy by just locking the housing in a stock.

I admit I'm much more sensitive to a trigger's "feel" because I had to work so many of them for high level NM competitors. Most people would not BELIEVE the ways they describe what they feel and what they want. Most people who say they want a "crisp" trigger actually don't want that because a crisp trigger is a bit hard. Not very many folks shoot that kind of trigger well because a true crisp trigger is a bit hard before it lets off, though there are a few I've known over the years who liked that. Some folks like more roll than others. Some folks wanted as much roll as found on some European sporting arms, though again that was rather uncommon.

For all these reasons and even more, I don't do trigger jobs without the whole rifle.

Oh, one more thing. When I was the Shop Chief at Quantico, one of my Armorers from THE Marine Corps Rifle Team came up to me and told me he and the other two armorers could not satisfy one shooter on the team. So I told him to have the shooter drop by the shop and for him to be there when the shooter came in. After talking to the shooter, I knew what he wanted was an immense amount of roll on his trigger by the way he was describing it. So I picked out a WRA Garand hammer and did the trigger job in about 20 minutes. Then I handed it to the shooter and told him I thought that was what he wanted and if not. let me know. He felt it three times and then said, "PERFECT!" and he started to walk off, but I stopped him and had my Armorer get a good feel of the trigger so he knew what it felt like. Then the shooter went off happy as a clam.

My Armorer was stunned. He told me all three of them had worked that trigger three or four times each and no one could satisfy him. I told him that about 20 years before we had a few shooters on the Team who shot triggers like that when I first came up on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team as the junior Armorer. Because even then I noticed things like the differences between WRA hammers and other hammers, I noticed the trigger pulls they liked the best had those WRA Garand hammers in them. The WRA Garand hammers are made the same as the very early SA hammers and had the different style of hammer hooks and a very slight difference in tolerances. So I used to keep WRA Garand hammers separated so when I had shooters who wanted that kind of trigger over the years, I could do the trigger they liked. We picked out another half dozen WRA Garand hammers and I told him to take them and separate them and put them on the Shop Van for those kinds of triggers.

After that, I had all my Rifle Team Armorers come in for about 4 hours of instruction on fine tuning triggers. Most of them knew most of the stuff, but they all learned a trick or two. Believe it or not, about an hour out of that was talking about what the shooter described and the other three hours was how to do the trigger so it would feel that way.

I don't mean to be critical and maybe it is the way you describe it, but I've been trying to figure out what you mean by the 3 1/2 pound second stage trigger pull. Do you mean the second stage is that much heavier than the first stage? The reason I ask is because you already mentioned the lightest trigger pull you do is 4 3/4 lbs.
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bas-askwards, sorry. 1st stage heavier than second stage.

Hugh,

OK, I think I get it now, but you didn't have it bas-acwards. There is more weight in the second stage than the first stage. The second stage is the actual trigger pull and the first stage is only a safety feature.

Something many people don't realize is that it is a very good thing to put a full length hammer spring in when doing a trigger job. NOT an "extra power" hammer spring mind you, but a full length G.I. spring. Some of those "extra power" commercial hammer springs have caused some bad problems in rifles and I don't use them at all. I don't have the blueprints handy, but I think they called for a G.I. hammer spring to be 2 3/16" long at maximum for both the Garand and M14. What I have always done is use a hammer spring that is at least 2 1/8" long for two main reasons.

The first reason is the longer spring gives you faster lock time. That means from the time the sear is released until the gun is fired, there is less time when you use the longer spring. That means the shooter has less of a chance to go off target from the time he releases the sear till the gun fires. Fast lock time is better for shooting in virtually every gun from muzzleloaders to modern ones.

The second reason is one most people have never thought about in a Garand or M14 trigger. When you have a heavier first stage trigger pull from the longer spring, there is less noticeable difference when pulling the second stage. That makes you THINK the actual trigger pull of the second stage is even lighter than it actually is. As such, it actually helps you shoot the rifle better.

I want to thank all those who responded to this question. I have learned enough not to rush into this job and I won't.

What I built was a 620XXX receiver from the North Store with some parts I have saved. I have a complete WRA trigger group I came upon somewhere in the last ten years, a 3-55 SA barrel, a new gas cylinder from the fellow on eBay that used to have USGI parts, a newly-made Chinese buttplate since I wanted one that looked OK but wouldn't matter if it got set on the ground and beat up a little and finally a broken stock I repaired out of Anniston's very best $10 broken stock box and new Dupage handguards that came last week from Arizona. The handguards were great, BTW.

The rifle is complete and the Schuster nut came yesterday from Midway, so that is the next install as soon as I put on my RA NM op rod. Since I am not a competitive shooter yet, I can work along on this rifle and get the results I want without a fear of failure.

Hugh, thanks to you and to Gus, as always, your insights are invaluable. Many thanks and a very happy Fourth of July to all who contributed and who are reading this.:thup:

You people are something else. The M1 Garand was built for the battlefield. If you want a smooth shooter go out and spend the money for a Weatherby or some other Uppie rifle.

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Originally Posted by jeff hamerstone

You people are something else. The M1 Garand was built for the battlefield. If you want a smooth shooter go out and spend the money for a Weatherby or some other Uppie rifle.

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I guess Mr. HammerTones has never heard of either the National Matches, or John C. Garand Excellence in "COMPETITION" matches. I guess this also means that we should all be perfectly happy with an 8lb trigger pull.

Little hint Jeff, a decent trigger makes shooting an M1 Garand MORE FUN and groups SMALLER. If you aren't interested in either, don't worry about it.

Geez-Louise.

A non sequitur (pronounced /ˌnɒnˈsɛkwɨtər/) is a conversational and literary device, often used for comical purposes (as opposed to its use in formal logic). It is a comment which, due to its apparent lack of meaning relative to what it follows,[1] seems absurd to the point of being humorous or confusing.

u no who or dan shapiro which is it anyway. I've about had it with this bull**** fourm if you would spend more time at the range and less on the keyboard we would all be better off.:bash:

If one is used to a good tuned trigger, it is real easy to get spoiled by them. Yes, it does make it easier to shoot the rifle well and that means you can get more of the accuracy the rifle has to offer.

If your standard trigger pull is good enough for you, then there's nothing wrong with shooting the rifle that way either.

Gus; I wasjust trying to see who I could get fired up from my post, I got what I expected.:)

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Originally Posted by jeff hamerstone

Gus; I wasjust trying to see who I could get fired up from my post, I got what I expected.:)

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Why did you feel you needed to do this? What's the point?
regards,
Chief

Chief; with all due respect, If you have to ask you wouldn't understand.

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Originally Posted by jeff hamerstone

Chief; with all due respect, If you have to ask you wouldn't understand.

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Fair enough.
regards,
Chief

what Mr. Hammerstones is saying about this posting
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You people are something else. The M1 Garand was built for the battlefield. If you want a smooth shooter go out and spend the money for a Weatherby or some other Uppie rifle.
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is that he either posted a fairly inane comment for no particularly good reason or in an effort to cause an argument (i.e. what is called being a "troll" on the internet. NEITHER motivation seems very bright of course.