Lanyard with Magazine?

I just got a repro M1911 magazine with a lanyard loop and cannot figure out how it was used.

I thought that the clip on the lanyard went on the pistol and the lanyard loop would then go through the loop on the magazine. The rope of the lanyard is too thick to fit doubled through the magazine ring. Did each magazine use its own lanyard as well as one for the pistol?

Inquiring minds want to know (my wife - as usual - thinks I'm crazy trying to figure out how calvary men arranged their pistols & magazines 100 years ago).

Thanks,
Jack

The original lanyard had three snaps, one for the pistol and one each for two magazines. The reason for the lanyard was primarily for cavalry (1911, remember?). A cavalry trooper in the middle of a charge couldn't just say "oops" and go back to pick up his pistol or a magazine he dropped. So the trooper must have looked a bit like a maypole, but he kept his pistol and magazines.

Jim

Ah, thanks. The lanyard that I have just has one snap. I was hearing about the cavalry lanyard, but looking at this other lanyard and getting confused. How rare are the calvary lanyards?

Jack

Jim, can you reference a description or picture of the lanyard with three snaps? The Model 1902 lanyard was made for the revolver, and did not fit the Model 1911 properly. In correspondence from Lt.Col. John Thompson dated August of 1913 he described filing the snap down to fit the 1911. It was not until 1917 that a lanyard was approved for the Model 1911 pistol.

Looking at the "What Price Glory" web site (What Price Glory - US M1917 Pistol Lanyard), it looks as if I have the M1917 lanyard (original, I guess, since I have had it for several years), but it just has one clip.

Jack

Jim K, Can you site a reference for the "three snap lanyard"? I'm always interested in Horse Cav stuff but I've never heard of a lanyard as you describe. Thanks, Nick

I can't at the moment, though I once saw a picture of one. So by not having absolute incontrovertible proof of my statement, I guess I left myself open for another "gotcha."

If there was never any such lanyard, though, just what did those magazine loops attach to? If the only lanyard ever made had only a single snap, why bother to put loops on the magazines and the gun as well?

Jim

Don't know the 1st.(or 2nd.)thing about them but in the late 40's] we had a neighbor who was a WW1 vet and he had pictures of himself on horseback and I remember 2 lanyards hanging over his shoulder,couldn't make out how attached(maybe one for a whistle?),or maybe a make shift use of a 2nd. lanyard use on his part?.

RayP.

Well, I have been digging. I don't have as much documentation on the 1911 as many others, but I can't find the picture I thought I remembered. In fact, I can't find any reference to a three snap lanyard. There are a number of web site references to a two snap arrangement, but no pictures on those either, and nothing in the standard books about any lanyards with other than a single snap.

Another oddity is that I can find references to the pistol loop; a revolver type loop was added to the 1902 test pistols at the request of the Army. It went through several changes before becoming the type we know on the 1911. But I can't find any reason or requirement for a magazine loop, except in the "go and do likewise" in magazine contracts. It doesn't seem logical that the Army would request something yet have no idea how to use it, so possibly it was a Colt or Browning idea. It does make sense, as the magazine is really part of the pistol and its loss would seriously limit the capability of the gun. Yet, there was no issue of a double snap lanyard and, as far as I can tell, no order to use a second lanyard for the magazine.

There is also no indication of a magazine pouch with provision for attachment of a lanyard to a magazine.

That there was apparently no serious magazine loss is indicated by elimination of the magazine loop in 1916, even before the U.S. entered WWI.

If anyone has any info on the why and wherefore of the magazine loop, I am sure others would like to read it.

I will add that I know of no foreign pistol magazines with loops (except for copies of the 1911). If there ever had been a problem with magazine loss, it did not seem to occur in other armies.

Jim

First, you must realize that first and foremost the U.S. Pistol, calibet .45 Model of 1911 was a cavalry weapon. When executing a horse back pistol charge the left hand is controling the horse by holding the reains and the right hand is firing the pistol. If you release an empty magazine it fall to the ground never to be seen again! The lanyard loop on the magazine was so they wouldn't being losing magazines. Anyone who has been in the military knows how anal it can be when it comes to equipment, especially in times of limited funds, as in the 1911 to 1917 period.

If you accept the premise that the 1911 was designed and built for the cavalry, you also have to take into account that the saber was the primary weapon in a cavalry charge and the pistol was the secondary weapon while the Model 1911 was being developed. Until the Model 1912 holster, all holsters were right side, butt to the front for the pistol to be used in the left hand.
Also you have to forget the Hollywood scenes where the cops shuck out magazines right and left as if they were expendable equipment. Also, at what time would the trooper have attached the magazine to a lanyard. Did he stop, release the magazine, and attached it to a waiting lanyard, or did he wear enough lanyards already attched to the magazines? The magazine pockets were not designed to contain a magazine with a lanyard attached. One lanyard with a pistol and two magazines attached by means of extra snaps would have required some type of special holster to hold everything.
My idea on the lanyard loop on the magazine is that it was a good idea, but had no practical application. The military is slow to change, but by 1915 the lanyard loop on the magazine was considered useless and discontinued.

Yeah, I can just see some poor cavalry guy getting all tangled up in two or three lanyards while trying to control the horse and swing his sabre around. I think it's one of those things that sound like a good idea but don't work out too well in practice.

I felt the same way, that since the magazine is really part of the pistol, its loss would be a serious matter in combat, especially to cavalry. A trooper who dropped a pistol or a magazine under the feet of a hundred galloping horses didn't just say, "'scuse me" and go back to pick it up.

But I can find no mention of using a lanyard for a magazine, and no pictures of any soldiers of the period with such a lanyard. Pictures of riders at the charge, in fact, don't show any lanyard attached to either the pistol or the magazine. Cavalry manuals don't mention attaching the magazine to anything, although it would have been possible to attach the primary magazine to the pistol so it would not get lost in a magazine swap. It is my suspicion that the lanyard was not much used even for the pistol, except possibly by military police (for the same reason some police still use a lanyard). The scarcity of lanyards would seem to bear that out; if the lanyard was as common as I had once thought, there should be more of them around.

But in the case of the magazine loop, Johnny is right - it was a good idea but its use was not practical.

Jim

As stated the M1902 lanyard did not fit the loop on the M1911 pistol...enter the loop on the magazine which WILL accept the M1902 lanyard. Just a thought. Also the loss of the loop on the magazine correspondes LOOSELY with the adoption of the new M1917 lanyard. Does anyone KNOW EXACTLY when they were adopted.

What is the connection with the lanyard loop on the magazine being discontinued in October of 1915 and the adoption of a new lanyard patented February 20, 1917?
The last Model 1911 pistol shipped from Colt with the lanyard loop magazine was serial number 125566, and the new lanyard would probably have appeared some weeks or months after the original patent date in 1917. It does not appear that Ordnance was in any hurry to adopt a new lanyard.

"What is the connection with the lanyard loop on the magazine being discontinued in October of 1915 and the adoption of a new lanyard patented February 20, 1917?"

Was there any?

Jim

"Also the loss of the loop on the magazine correspondes LOOSELY with the adoption of the new M1917 lanyard. "


I ask the same thing.

I thought maybe the lanyard ring on the mags were dropped because of the new M1917 lanyard would fit the pistol---that is why I asked the question in the final sentence: "Does anyone KNOW EXACTLY when they were adopted."

But I wasn't expecting such harsh replies. But thanks anyway, guys.

I almost hate to ask about the actual reason for removing the rings!?

SteveD

The lanyard loop on the magazine was removed because it served no useful purpose. The lanyard was to attach to the pistol, and this was carried over into 1911A1 production, where there had not been a lanyard loop magazine made in over 25 years when the new lanyard was issued.