Peter OT ? re Briitsh WWII Colt .38 spl New Service

Peter I have an off topic question regarding my "Battle of Britain" 4 inch barrel .38 Speical Colt New Service revolver that is one of 87 purchased by Britain in 1940 to support the war.

The revolver has the typical broad arrow over Enfield inspector's markings located on the top left side of the frame, well above the cylinder thumb latch. There are no commercial proofs present. It has proper checkered period wood grips.

Of interest is that the gun has been converted from .38 Speical to .38/200 (.38 S&W) by opening up the cylinder chambers and apparently opening up the barrel interior diameter. The left side of the receiver over the barrel is stamped "/ 380" which is typical of this type of conversion--which I have seen before. The entire revolver has been refinished into a gray colored Parkerizing. The ejector rod head has been replaced with a knurled replacement of matching finish.

The question is do you know what country, organization or group did the conversion/finish work? There are no FTR or FR makrings or makers marks and the lack of commercial proofs is most interesting. Comments please and thank you.

NOT a conversion but rather originaly chambered for the standard BRITISH .38 calibre round rather than the American 38 spl.

Glad you said that John as I was stumped. We also have a little Colt .38, 4" barrel, phosphate finish and I just assumed that a .38 special would fire our issue .38" Mk2Z! From what you said Paul, I just couldn't see a programme being instigated to bore out and/or rechamber for 87 revolvers..... Revolvers aren't my thing but I'll see what the paperwork says.

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Originally Posted by breakeyp

the lack of commercial proofs is most interesting.

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Nor would one expect any, unless the revolver had been through British civilian ownership.

BTW. What is the reference to the Battle of Britain?

It would/should have British military proofs Beerhunter. You know, the little crown over crossed flags and a P underneath. Someone told me that they were in fact crossed lances..., as in 'men on horseback'. Or even swords but whatever................. It would have been proofed prior to UK Military acceptance

According to the notes I took at Mrs. Milner's Aug. 2007 Bisley Lecture:-

We bought the following from Colt:

.38 Special Police Positive 972
Official Police 4449 All .38 Special
Officers Model Target 1076 all .38 Special blued
New Service 1590 .38, .357, .45 (no .455’s left)
New Service Target 96 .45, not all purchased from factory
Shooting Master 115 6”; 43 x .38 Sp, 12 x .357, 60 x .45
Single Action Army 161 or 163 .38 Sp, .357, .45 Colt
Govt. Model 2378
National Match 17 (fixed sight)
Govt. Model .38 Super 1120
Govt. Model .38 Super 250 fixed sight super match = 59 machined for adjustable sight but converted to fixed sight. Recorded in Colt records as HRS Super Match [high rear sight]


38 Sp reamed out to take .38-200
.357 rough reamer & finish reamer (little used)
Colts marked on left of barrel socket /.380 (some proved at this time)

The "Battle of Britain" (so called by collectors) were commercial Colt and S&W revolvers and pistols purchased from the US factories. They were inspected at Enfield and marked with broad arrow over Enfield inspectors markings on the left side of the frame. Apparently there were no proof firings as they were not marked with military or commercial proofs at that time. When some were surplused off in the 1970s they were commercially proofed and marked with markings of that period. Not all were commecially proofed based on some in my collection. Possibly those that were not commercally proofed were directly passed on to another government.

The referenced Colt has a .38 spl marked barrel but has been /380 marked indicating .38 S&W ammo. I have S&W target .38 revolvers that also have been converted to .38 S&W that were originally used as .38 Spls and had the red paint band on the barrel. When converted to .38/200--the most of the red band was crudely sandpapered off. Skennerton/Stamps book on the .38 Enfield show some of these types of conversions. If you reload, these convesions are not for you as the modified chambers distort the brass and result in short case life.

Well those were not the only oddball revolvers. purhased, there were also Iver Johnson 32 and 38 revolvers.
There was at least one contract for 24,870 Smith & Wesson revolvers and I really don't think the British would order that many that would require a specialized (to them ) ammunition rather than their service ammo.
In fact I do have a Smith in 38S&W with broad arrows on it.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It would/should have British military proofs Beerhunter. You know, the little crown over crossed flags and a P underneath. Someone told me that they were in fact crossed lances..., as in 'men on horseback'. Or even swords but whatever................. It would have been proofed prior to UK Military acceptance

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Of course, but the OP referred to 'commercial' which I translated to 'Civilian' (London or Birmingham) proof marks - as opposed to 'military'.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that American guns purchased by the British or sent to the UK as lend lease were not subjected at that time to commercial proof as they were for military use and were not submitted for military proof unless they were to be issued. The guns that apparently were never issued (e.g., U.S. M1917's) do not have British military proofs or broad arrow property marks. When those guns that were subjected to military proof were removed from storage for sale in the post-war years, the military proof was recognized and they did not require a civilian proof, while those with no military proof were submitted to the normal civilian proof.

Jim

All military surplus firearms, regardless of origin, are deemed to be unproved and must be submitted for proof before commercial sale.