hxxp://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134254873
Is this a real sniper or one that was put together??
Printable View
hxxp://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134254873
Is this a real sniper or one that was put together??
74L should have a 1944 dated action.
So the verdict is: put together
Agreed. With the serialed mount, it should be matching to the rifle, without any doubt. Nice mount, but wrong rifle.
I usually just lurk here but I, too, noted the auction at GB (I have a large collection of sniper rifles) and from what research I could do in my library, it looks pretty legit to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
I'm not going to bid on it (no money) but I'm not sure of your logic here. Frankly, if I had the money I would be very tempted to bid on this one.
The rifle pictured on GB is dated 1945. Skennerton says a 1944 date on the receiver is "typical" but he doesn't say it is exclusive.
Skennerton's "The Lee Enfield," Page 524: "these particular conversions were effected during a three month period in early 1945." And the photo in the book shows a mount with a 74L serial number, just like the one at GB.
The last digit of the receiver date in the photo in Skennerton is in shadow and can't be read.
So why MUST this be a 1944 rifle as you insist?
Seems a 1945 action fits in with Skennerton's description, or at least his description doesn't exclude a 1945 rifle. In fact, if they were converted during three months of 1945, I would suppose (absent any data to the contrary) that 1945 dated rifles were among those converted.
There are lots of Alaskans floating around out there and from the ad in GB it is correctly marked, at least it is identical to the marking Skennerton provides.
No serial number range is given for the scopes or mounts but the mount in Skennerton is 74L0058 and the one for sale is 74L0197.
Granted, only 99 were built but how many mounts were purchased? The order was for 450 sights, so I assume a similar number of mounts were ordered. Were the used in numerical sequence? We don't know.
Limpetmine says (above) the serial number on the mount "should be matching to the rifle, without any doubt" but Skennerton's description doesn't say that at all. The serial number on the mount shouldn't match anywhere on the rifle or the scope, according to Skennerton.
I don't claim to be an expert like some of you guys do, but your evidence seems too weak to support your conclusion.
Sure, I would like something a bit more concrete (a list of actual seerial numbers used would be handy) but I'm not sure I would label this guy's gun a fake based on what we have.
Or am I missing something here (highly possible and very probable)?
Thanks.
This is a great site, BTW!
I'll go back to lurking now....
HT
There was a batch of brackets with 32TP scopes surplused from the Netherlands a number of years ago. This alone makes any LB 4T with 32TP scope worth careful examination.
The 74L serial on the bracket should match the rifle.
Are there '44 dated receivers with serials higher than 74L? If there are, a '45 dated 74L would be suspect.
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiriaq
Good to know there are several brackets and mounts rattling around out there.
That fact would make any LB 4T w/32TP scope suspect.
Obviously they can be attached to any LB 4 (and Skennerton says these were stock rifles, not specially bedded or otherwise improved or specially marked. So that's some valuable (and appreciated) information.
I still haven't found anything that says the mount number and rifle number should match and I've looked through quite a few references.
But, again, if there is a question on any collector piece that can't be answered, I certainly agree it's best to leave it alone until it's certain.
With (as of this writing) three hours remaining and only two bidders, it appears others are unconvinced as well.
Thanks for the response!
HT
OK, read Skennerton & Laidler again. The mount (if it is numbered) should be numbered to the action. The scope should be numbered to the butt stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotTom
Sorry, I guess my initial response wasn't very clear; I will attempt to clarify my answer:Quote:
Originally Posted by HotTom
This "sniper rifle" (which was previously for sale by reese surplus by the way) is serialed 24Lxxxx, which is somewhat outside of the legitimate "T.P." serial block 74L0000-74L0350.
Being that the mount is serialed to the original 1944 dated 74L serial # block action, I would assume that to be proper, the action would be serialed within the appropriate serial block ~ therefore establishing that this is not a "miss-match", but rather a "put together" or "fake sniper" job.
I hope this answers several of your questions.
I would recommend Skennerton's "British Sniper", Laidler's "Armourer's Perspective", and Clive Law's excellent book "Without Warning" (specific to Canadian sniping), available thru (i'm sure) a sponsoring member.
Lee, I have all the books except Clive Law's.
I don't want to beat it to death but I could find nothing that said the mount number and rifle number should match (although that seems logical). Do you have a reference for that?
Is the serial block you mention for rifles or mounts? And where did that range come from?
It's all just for info. Someone bought the gun for $2,200 and it certainly wasn't me.
But it's good to learn this stuff. I do have a wall full of sniper rifles, altho none are CDN.
Thanks again!
HT
The number on the mount - 74Lxxxx - is the serial number of the rifle to which the set was originally fitted. Its not simply a scope mount serial. If the mount serial is different from the rifle serial, the set is a mismatched rifle and mount. Whether this happened as a result of recent assembly, or when unit was in service, who knows?
$2200 is a fraction of what a 32TP equipment is worth.
Saved this auction information and pics for posterity ... :thup:
Question: Is Skennerton always correct? Are these British sniper rifles either "black or white" unlike the US M1C rifles that also have numbered and un-numbered bases and numbered mounts?
No Skennerton is not always correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramboueille
No one is, Laidler, Law, Reynolds, every author has errors and omissions.
British No4 T serials do not appear in specific blocks as each rifle was target fired and selected for conversion.
Early Canadian No4Ts followed the British system, but this was found too slow and a batch system was instituted during 1944.
If you are referring specifically to the Lyman Alaskan equipped Long Branch No4Ts then ALL of the production T.P. scopes were in the 1944 74L block...
Regarding M1Cs, contact the Garand collectors association for the known serial numbers. The production block serial number batch ranges are quite well established.
Here is a set of pictures captured from the web of what a serialed Alaskan
looks like. No, not saying they all are serialed this way; who could really answer that? However, I've not yet seen one that hasn't been serialed to the rifle.
If the rifle was damaged, worn out was the scope placed on another rifle by an armourer to keep the kit in action. If this was done then was the original number on the scope barred out and the new host number applied. Were these rifles FTRd just like any other rifle. A full matching one could be rarer than hens teeth or rocking horse poo unless they were not used and just stored. (dont think so)