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Hi All,
Question, which will be cheaper, taking a worn out Garand and rebarreling to 308 and reparking ($500 + ?) or buying a M1A or M14S ($950+)? Is the accuracy from the M14/M1A series THAT much better then a Garand? I'm not doing this as a match rifle, but for the day the M2 ball runs out. Thanks in advance.
Mike D
I did a 308 conversion on a Garand and it was nice. Shoot well and was a lot easier on the old shoulder. But when I started using an M1A that was it for the Garand. Sold the Garand and purchased an M1A. Go with the M1A.
I've built two .308 Match Garands, and have a Springfield M1A heavybarrel and a Chinese M14S with match mods.
Both of the .308 Match Garands I have shoot really well and are easy on brass. The reason I got interested in .308 Garands is because old shooters told me that the M1 was more accurate than the M14, and the .308 was more accurate than the .30-'06. Just my experience, but i think the bedding on Garands lasts longer before needing a re-do. Garand parts are a good bit cheaper and easier to find. Some jurisdictions won't let you have a flash suppressor or detachable magazine on the M1A.
The M1A I have shot quite well until the barrel became quite worn, and still shoots decently. The M14S I have not shot that much. Both beat up brass pretty quick.
Kreiger had a special on .308 Garand barrels on their website recently, and I bought one. The other two .308 Garand barrels I have used are Douglas barrels from the Douglas website.
I always thought the Garand wasn't as accurate as the M14 series because the gas cylinder on the Garand was at the end of the barrel and the op rod + bolt has more mass than the M14 combination making it "less accurate"?Quote:
Originally Posted by NuJudge
I'm not trying the start a flamewar over this. I've heard .308 is more accurate than .30-06, but that it was more of a "theoretical" than actual accuracy improvement. Is the "theoretical" .308 Garand more/less accurate than the M14 combo? If the Garand/.308 combo is more accurate, why weren't more conversions done for NM competition since there were 7.62 NATO service rifle conversions?
Mike D
Accuracy depends on a lot of things. I reload my own rounds in 30-06 and 308. This makes a big difference. The set up on the rifle also needs to be looked at. I had my Grand done by a USMC arromy. One heck of a job. But the M1A I have is a Springfield Armory, match chromed barrel, lamated stock, NM sights, etc. Shoots much better than the Garand I had. I still use a Garand in the WWII matches.
Back to the original question "Which is cheaper". Re-barreling in .308. As to the repark.......is the finish than worn, or is this just cosmetic? "Cosmetic" doesn't effect what comes out the end of the barrel. It just adds to the overall cost.
An M1 will have a USGI receiver and use 99% USGI parts. That receiver and those parts are more likely to be dimensionally and structurally correct; probably cheaper and more available too.
If you're just going to feed it surplus ammo both rifles will shoot that stuff as well as just about any rifle will shoot it.
For highpower competition an M1 in .308 and an M14 are about equal (or can be made about equal). All it takes to shoot a 100-10X is a 1MOA gun and both rifles are capable of doing that. In highpower terms any accuracy differences there may be between the M1 and M14 systems are angels dancing on a pin.
While in terms of ballistics .308 and .30-'06 are essentially identical (the bullets and desired velocities are the same) my experience is .308 seems to be more consistent and therefore accurate. That may be due to the shorter powder column, greater load density, or my imagination.
I think the main reason more M1s weren't converted to .308 for match use was at the time those conversions would have been done the service teams had to use the current Service Rifle and that was the M14. Gus Fisher has posted that it took quite a while before the Marines got their M14s to shoot as well as the M1. They did so eventually but it was because they had to; not because they wanted to or it was easier.
Maury
If it is only the M-1's barrel that is worn out, rebarrelling and reparking are going to be cheaper. If the whole rifle is worn, and needs extensive rebuilding, that is going to up the cost, and require more work.
I have shot M-1s in .30-06 and .308, as well as USGI M-14s and commercial versions.
I think you should go with the rifle that you like shooting best. If you already have an M-1 suitable for rebarrelling, go with that.
Who said there weren't? When I started back into HP in the late 80's, if you saw ANY Garand, it was a .308, including mine as soon as I got the money to get a barrel on it! Unlike today, a .30-06 Garand was a VERY rare bird, and generally indicated a "New Shooter" waiting in line with his "One-In-A-Lifetime" DCM Garand for Roland Beaver or Clint Fowler to work far enough through their backlog to send the rifle to them for conversion.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoerner
As for the rest. At the very peak of the hill, the Garand is a touch less accurate than the M14 based primarily on the gas system, but without a corresponding High Master card in your wallet, this is largely a distinction without any difference.
I've got both, I shoot both from time to time....but haven't used the .308 Garand in competition since shooting on a GCA Rumboldt Team 6-7 years ago...but I'm biased, the M14 was always the rifle of my heart. Both are sweet-shooting .30 cals, and frankly, I prefer shooting the .308 version to the .30-06 version....but you made the choices between the Garand and the 14...and I'd have to pick the 14 even if it will cost you more. Having said that....a commercial "M1-A" isn't the same rifle as an M14, and the newer it is, the less like it it is! I like my M14 because I built it with all new GI parts save the Norinco forged receiver....that's a VERY difficult rifle to duplicate these days, making this a VERY tough, very close call.
You guys are the best.
One other Garand service rifle question. If I decide to go the .308 route, but decide to get a Kreiger match grade barrel for it, are there any rules against using a laminate stock in High Power competition? Also, would you glass bed a laminate stock for the Garand? Thanks in advance.
Mike D
The laminated stock is perfectly legal for HP-Service Rifle, and if you're gonna go....go all the way! Half-measures are just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoerner
For NRA and CMP Service Rifle a laminate is OK (even preferred) as is epoxy bedding and all the other bells and whistles. As John says, there's usually no point in half-stepping.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoerner
For CMP Games, any one of those (.308, barrel, laminate, epoxy) will be enough to take you out of the "As Issued" class and put you into the new "Unlimited" class.
Another thing to consider if you plan to shoot an M1 in competition on a regular basis is the upkeep.
You really need two (or three) equal shooting rifles: #1 shooting, #2 on standby and, if you can afford it, a #3 for when #1 goes in the shop for a new tube. This is especially true if you shoot year-round and don't have an off-season to spend rebarrel/rebuilding.
Maury
including several M1A's and Garands (of course), frankly, while I like the M1A's/Arsmcorps I had, I ended up not shooting them all that much. In fact, my Armscorps all USGI rifle was VERY accurate and reliable piece.
On the other hand, I have a Carl Leisinger match-prepped .308 WRA Garand which shoots about MOA (with a standard contour Wilson barrel no less) and decided I only need one semi-auto .308. I am happy with the one Garand..
BUT... I almost bought a DPPMS AR10-type heavy barrel rifle the other day (LOL!).
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-39.jpg
Just to stir the pot, you can find M1A's for $950.00 as I did. Now I added teh scope and cheek rest.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Is that a Springfield Armory M1A or another brand?
Mike D
Cheaper by far, I think, to re-barrel a tired Garand; Wilson makes a very good barrel which I buy when on sale at Midway. I have done several and they are great shooters, but with a bit sharper kick. Will also kick the brass out a ways, but this can be corrected.
The M1A is from Springfield Armory. Dates to 1993 or 1994 if I rember.
My first rifle was a Garand w/ a VAR barrel. I shot it and loved it...I bought a Norinco M14S and sent it to Fulton Armory for the USGI Upgrade...all parts USGI except the receiver..........well that rifle shot a 50 yd 3 shot group on a 1inch square target using iron sights that is covered by a dime. I then bought another Norinco M14S and did no mods to it other than a Freds Birch Stock....put over 1000k rounds of the green/blue box Sellier&Belloit Corrosive ammo through it (cleaned w/ Windex etc.) Shoots every bit as well as the Fulton rifle w/ crappier ammo. I bought the HXP ammo and started shooting the Garands again (now I have 7 of em) but I shot like cr*p must be me maybe I've developed a flinch or something but I don't think I get as good a sight picture w/ the Garands as I do w/ the M14's...Maybe has something to do w/ the Garand front handguard but I am able to hunker down and look down that skinny barrel and the pic of the front sight is just right. I know it aint scientific but I just think I can aim better w/ the setup on the M14. If I could only have one rifle it would be the Fulton M14S I had them make me in 1999/2000. Borrow someone's M14 and see which of the 2 rifles you shoot best.
Dave
FWIW - Rebarreling the M1 should be cheaper (just a few $100) . That is assuming it doesn't need a lot of other worn parts to be replaced.
As for repark, that is purely cosmetic, and for me only adds to cost. I think about how much barrel shows on an M1, and how far it is from other metal parts (lots of walnut shows on the M1) .So if the rifle looks pretty good right now, it probably wouldn't make much difference. If it goes boom and puts 'em where you want 'em, I think that's more impressive than a matching color, but that's me.
I don't have the correct tools, so I sent a receiver and bolt to DGR and about a week later I had my new, headspaced barreled receiver ready to accept the remaining parts. That was about 5 years ago and she still gets pulled from the safe for nearly every outing to the range.
I also have an M1A, and love it. But that's the cost of a new rifle (used up safe space, too) to consider. Around here (Peoples Repulik of Kalif), you then have get compliant parts of be a felon in possession of an AW.
Good luck and I'm have fun.
well, you might consider one of these,
all 308
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/...75afa2d2c1.jpg
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th m48 schmouser is also 308.
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3451/...8a4708cfcd.jpg
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3395/...24d5272a8c.jpg
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Reese Surplus Inc.
No High Power rule says you can't use a laminate stock. No High Power rule says you cannot glass bed.
CMP as-issued rules would prohibit both.