There was some lawyer in Maryland, I think, who was attempting to get the BATF to change their ruling on the receivers. I haven't heard anything on that is several years.
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There was some lawyer in Maryland, I think, who was attempting to get the BATF to change their ruling on the receivers. I haven't heard anything on that is several years.
The BATF exercised the "Once a machine gun always a machine gun" fallacy and got a Federal judge to uphold it. everyone lost the receivers and Mike Kelley spent some time in the pokey and is probably the defendant in a thousand lawsuits from the buyers he screwed.
Hope that brings you up to speed
i've always wondered about m1 carbines. as far as i know there isn't much difference between the m1 and m2 reciever. so can either be made into a maching gun with the proper parts installed?
the same question applies to ar15's.
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10-q, goo
hey, the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3487/...b9720d.jpg?v=0
IIRC there is no difference between a M1 carbine receiver and an M2 receiver except the M2 marking
I have read that the BATFU says that the possession of an M1 carbine and a stripped M2 trigger housing, not on the gun, is conspiracy to manufacture a machine gun (like having an M16 hammer in your AR15 or having a spare barrel for your Uzi rifle that is less than 16", even if you don't install it).
so an m1 carbine reciever is not a machinegun but an m14 reciever is?
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Machine Gun Granny - Funny Videos - Jokeroo.com is Jokes
thank you,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Rochester
goo
Sorry, folks, but that "once a machinegun..." is the way the law (GCA '68) is written, not some BATFE "fallacy". The law and the legislative history are clear; Congress intended that it should not be legal in any way to make a machinegun into a non-machinegun. The whole thing grew out the intent to ban future DEWAT programs, when ATTD (predecessor of BATFE) allowed machineguns to be welded up and removed from all firearms controls as "non guns." (Like table lamps, as an ATTD agent told me.) Some folks, with a lot of publicity, "re-watted" those guns, and the whole thing became a big scandal with the anti-gun gang up to their usual fear mongering and hatred of guns and gun owners. So Congress changed the definition of a machinegun along with import bans, etc.
As to "M2" carbines, BATFE takes the basic position that a gun is what it says it is, and an M2 carbine is a machinegun. FWIW, I know of no ruling that an M2 trigger housing, either by itself or on an M1 carbine, is a machinegun or that possession is illegal. Can anyone cite something official? (No, not the cousin of a friend said that someone told him....)
Jim
Goo, IIRC means "If I recall correctly." HTH (Hope this helps) KarlKWQuote:
Originally Posted by goo
thanks, i'll try to remember that
Two very elderly marines were enjoying the sunshine on a bench . They had been meeting every sunny day for over 12 years... jaw jacking, telling each other sea stories, etc..
One day, the younger of the two old marines, turns to the other and says, "Please don''t be p***ed me, but I am embarrassed, after all these years. . .What is your name? I am trying to remember, but I just can't."
The older jarhead stares at him , looking very distressed, says nothing for two full minutes, and finally , says, "How soon do you have to know?"
so even though an m2 reciever is mechanically identical to an m1 carbine reciever, its unlegal, right?
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http://www.wwiiguns.com/store/images...ack_2_wwii.jpg
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http://www.impactguns.com/store/medi...GT_3003309.jpg
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http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_...ine_700_07.jpg
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http://world.guns.ru/rifle/m2car.jpg
The applicable definition in law is in 26USC5845(b):
"(b) Machinegun
The term "machinegun'' means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person."
The key word is "designed"
Both the M14 rifle and M2 carbine were designed to shoot full auto. They can't be un-designed to semi-auto so they will always be "machineguns."
The M1 carbine wasn't designed to shoot full auto so in the absence of "...any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun..." it's not a "machinegun"
Maury
Now that I think about it I was talking to Larry Ruth about the M1A1 carbines and at that time he related his experience of the CMP sorting process. He indicated that if a M1 was over-stamped with an M2 designation they were stripped down and sent back to the Army to be scrapped.
The "M1-M2" Carbine debate is fairly academic....very few M2's were ever marked as such, fewer still were actually built as such, which explains the BATFE's major antipathy toward the genre as a whole! There are over a million of them sitting in Vietnam (mostly M2's), that they'd like to sell and Americans would like to buy....but the Feds get a case of the vapors if it's even mentioned!
M2 Video!
Check out this video YouTube - M2 Carbine - How it works.
I had an M2 (M1 with kit) carbine for many years and sold it a year or so ago. It was pretty neat and sort of controllable with the recoil check mounted. It recoils up and to the right. I could see it only if it were used against a close-in mass attack. The idea of hitting enemies at 100 yds firing FA with a carbine is silly; the first shot may hit, but the rest won't be anywhere near the target. A fun gun, though, and I had a lot of ammo bought at $2 a hundred, so it didn't cost a fortune.
Just FYI, if you acquire a kit and decide to put it on an M1 carbine, make sure you install the M2 stock, the round bolt, the 4-rivet handguard, and the Type 3 recoil shield. Mine was a QHMC with the separate recoil spring tube and I had no problems, but I suggest the use of a receiver with the drilled hole. And make sure you get GI parts, especially the disconnector lever; I have seen several of the repros break and if it is the numbered part, that is the end for the machinegun.
Jim
This is from The BATFE NFA Handbook on the M2 Carbine:
M2 Carbine conversion kit
The above parts consisting of an M2 selector lever, selector lever spring, disconnector lever assembly,
M2 disconnector, disconnector spring, disconnector plunger and M2 hammer are classified as a
machinegun. These parts are used specifically for fully automatic fire and have no application in a
semiautomatic carbine. While other parts such as an M2 sear, operating slide, trigger housing and stock
are used in the fully automatic carbine, these parts are also appropriate for use in semiautomatic M1
carbines.16
Therefore, the M2 sear, operating slide, trigger housing and stock are not a combination of parts
designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun.
Click here for ATF's position on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim K
It says, in part, "The above parts consisting of an M2 selector lever, selector lever spring, disconnector lever assembly, M2 disconnector, disconnector spring, disconnector plunger and M2 hammer are classified as a machinegun. These parts are used specifically for fully automatic fire and have no application in a semiautomatic carbine. While other parts such as an M2 sear, operating slide, trigger housing and stock are used in the fully automatic carbine, these parts are also appropriate for use insemiautomatic M1 carbines. Therefore, the M2 sear, operating slide, trigger housing and stock are not a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun."
I disagree about the hammer. Plainfield used to ship their M-1 carbines with M-2 hammers, using a washer to take up the space occupied by the M-2 disconnector. Proceed at your own risk.
You need all the parts for it to be a machinegun. Having just the hammer installed breaks no laws.
Calif Dept of Justice(!) has spent considerable time and effort telling dealers to alter M2 trigger housings. I know of many dealers in Calif who have sent their housings to machine shops to have them altered. I am not aware of any laws requiring this, but in Calif everyone knows the Bud Evers Story and all are afraid of DOJ.
Quite simply, possession of an M-1 carbine and a handfull of M-2 parts is considered "constructive" possession of an unregistered machine gun. Same goes for AR15 and M16 fire control parts. This includes lightening links and disconnectors such as still being sold by Suppress-On even if they're in your pocket! A guy without a Carbine or an AR can own as many as he wants, just don't bring 'em together. Kinda like 151 Rum and fire!
Well, ya know, this was never about M1As or Garands or M14s and it has meandered a bit so I'm gonna stick it over in the GunTalk section for safe-keeping. Play on! :madsmile:
Bob
Both the M14 rifle and M2 carbine were designed to shoot full auto. They can't be un-designed to semi-auto so they will always be "machineguns."
An M-14 can't be "undesigned" but it could be modified to render it impossible to shoot full auto and no more easily convertible to full auto than an M1A. Based on what I can recall from basic training 40 years ago: remove all the full auto linkage, cut off the selector switch lug, and presto, you have an M1A. Is there anything else that would have to be done? Think of all cash the CMP could have raked in if that would have been permitted!! Carl
You can have a barrel shorter than 16" for a UZI and install it if you have a tax stamp.
The "handful" of M2 carbine parts has to be specific parts, since it takes the entire "kit" to convert and M1 carbine to full auto. No single part or combination of parts short of the full number will do it. BATFE pretty much has to take that position, since many M1 carbines sold throught DCM were upgraded with some M2 parts, like M2 slides and trigger housings. The latter, by the way, is not one of the six "magic" parts.
Jim
California may have it's own laws regarding certain parts. Just as Ohio says a magazine holding more than 32 rds is a machinegun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve
" A guy without a Carbine or an AR can own as many as he wants, just don't bring 'em together. Kinda like 151 Rum and fire![/QUOTE]
Not true with the carbine, owning the all the parts is considered having a machinegun even if you don't own a M1.
From the NFA handbook put out by the BATFE:
The “designed to shoot automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function
of the trigger” portion of the definition relates to the characteristics of the
weapon that permit full automatic fire. ATF has also held that the “designed” definition includes those
weapons which have not previously functioned as machineguns but possess design features which
facilitate full automatic fire by simple modification or elimination of existing component parts. ATF has
published rulings concerning specific firearms classified as machineguns based on this interpretation of
the term “designed.”15
Included within the definition of machinegun is any part designed and intended solely and exclusively,
or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun. This
portion of the machinegun definition addresses what are commonly referred to as conversion kits. The
“any part designed and intended solely and exclusively” language refers to a part that was produced for
no other reason than to convert a weapon into a machinegun. Illustrated below are examples of such
parts.
conversion sear for H&K semiautomatic firearms
Drop in Auto Sear for AR15 type semiautomatic firearms
The above parts are designed solely and exclusively for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun
and are classified as machineguns.
15 Appendix B (ATF Rulings 82-2, 82-8, 83-5)
12
The “combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun”
language refers to a group of parts designed and intended to be used in converting a weapon into a
machinegun. A typical example is those M2 carbine parts that are only used to permit fully automatic
fire in a US Carbine M1 or M2.
"An M-14 can't be "undesigned" but it could be modified to render it impossible to shoot full auto and no more easily convertible to full auto than an M1A. Based on what I can recall from basic training 40 years ago: remove all the full auto linkage, cut off the selector switch lug, and presto, you have an M1A. Is there anything else that would have to be done? Think of all cash the CMP could have raked in if that would have been permitted!! Carl[/QUOTE]
Getting back to the original topic about the M14 case; Modifying is what got Mike Kelly in trouble: The BATFE's case revolved around being able to put the lug back on, as the take down notch was still present along with a groove under the op rod track.
Here is link to part of the case facts:
US v. Kelly - Altlaw
That law in Ohio was repealed about the time I graduated from college...in other words, a LONG time ago!Quote:
Originally Posted by n64atlas
This is still in the Ohio Revised code: definitions section:
E) “Automatic firearm” means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges with a single function of the trigger. “Automatic firearm” also means any semi-automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle cartridges.
It is a distinction without any difference (or penalty)....the definition means nothing since the state got bounced by the Federal District Court for attempting to define an "automatic firearm" in terms OTHER than those established by Federal Law, and never bothered to fight it....which happened around 1973!
BTW; your not that old John, unless it took you a Loooong time to finish collage
we are about the same age. The last of the boomers.
Getting back to the original topic about the M14 case; Modifying is what got Mike Kelly in trouble: The BATFE's case revolved around being able to put the lug back on, as the take down notch was still present along with a groove under the op rod track.
This is getting ridiculous so don't take me too seriously. :) I don't recall the groove but couldn't an M1A receiver be machined to add the groove and take down notch and have a lug welded on? I assume a determined machinist could pull this off. Of course, none of it has anything to do with common sense. All one has to do is observe the current machinations of the house and senate to realize that most of these law makers are a bunch of loony scoundrels!! :rofl: Carl
As Carl said, one could take an M1A and easily convert it to full auto.
I could take an M-1 and in 30 minutes convert it to fire Full Auto, with the right tools. It would not be smooth or clean like a true M-14.
In Kelly's case, he had been welding M-14's for 10 years, with an ad running in the Shotgun News. When his business ramped up, he couldn't keep up, turned out some bad weld jobs. One disgruntled M-14 owner whined, the BATF revisited him, and the rest, as they say, is history. The BATF "expert" had the benefit of a complete gunshop, tools, and a videotape. He converted it just as easily as he could almost any other weapon.
But, the decks were stacked against Kelly, even though the NRA furnished one of their best lawyers. The government could not let this case win, it would open up many more cans of worms.
Those that have the "lost" Kelly M-14's --- it looks like only less than 50 were confiscated according to that link...... happy shooting.
At one point in the controversy, I spoke to the younger Kelly on the phone. He assured me that 1) they had a letter from BATFE saying the guns were legal semi-autos, and that a copy of the letter was included with each gun, 2) that if the gun I were to buy was ever questioned or seized, they would replace it with one of their new rifles, 3) they had full BATFE approval for that new rifle, and 4) MKS had the funds to reimburse buyers if their rifles were seized and they chose not to accept one of the new ones.
All lies.
The "letter" was from MKS saying that they were legal, not from BATF. The only "official" letter they had was to someone else, was over ten years old and didn't cover what MKS was doing. They tried to market a "new" rifle and BATF ordered that stopped as well; they never had any sort of OK from BATF. And they never refunded any money to anyone.
But Kelly was, like most con men, very slick talking and very persuasive. Skeptical already, I didn't order a rifle.
At the time, I saw several MKS M14's and thought they would be very difficult to convert, nor am I sure that was BATF's main point. The guns were M14's; they were marked "U.S. Rifle, Cal. 7.62mm, M14." Had the Kellys removed that marking, and stamped "MKS M14" or something similar they would have probably been OK, but then their primary market, mall ninjas and wannabee Delta Force, would have dried up.
Jim
Ah, the evil conversion parts. Used to be a guy who frequented the gun shows around here, had nice display cases with all kinds of parts for all kinds of rifles. The one section that always intrigued me was the M2 "replacement" parts". Many a fellow with a shopping list in his hand, consulting with a friend on who was going to buy which part. Next show, same people. Heard this from a guy whose co-worker's 2nd cousin's uncle had a friend who told him.
OFC
Here is a nice little True or False Test if you're a fan of ATF administrative rulings:
True or False:
#1. A shoestring is a machine gun.
#2. A round hole (the hole itself) consisting of air is a machinegun.
#3. Duct Tape is a machine gun.
High school ROTC in the early 1960's.
Summer camp at Fort Polk, Louisiana.
Fired the M2 carbine, the BAR, some got to fire 30 caliber machine guns.
And we fired our school's M1 Garands.
One young worthy had consulted with his Father, a WWII vet with experience in the European Theatre before we left.
On the range:
Ready on the right, Ready on the left, commerce fire.
BURRRRP-PING!
CEASE FIRE DAMMITT!
Gee, don't mess with the trigger group!
Paul K.
The common practice was for one dealer to carry four of the six or seven carbine parts, another to carry three or four others, so no dealer had a "machinegun", the full set. But someone who wanted to shop could easily buy all of them.
Trouble is that BATFE was onto the game and in one case followed a guy who bought all the parts. The agent made friends, they went to the friend's apartment, where the guy assembled the FA carbine (on video tape), then went to what the agent called "my uncle's farm" where they got great videos of the sucker firing the gun. Then, the arrest. Guy got off with suspended sentence, but as a convicted felon can never legally own another gun and probably can never get a job in any position of trust.
It ain't worth it, folks.
Jim
I have a M2 Slide and Sear. Can anyone tell me where I can get the rest of the parts.
I want to go BURRRRPPPPPPPP.
Drink cold soda REALLY fast!! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by 0311Shooter
I thought the whole rewelded receiver thing was hinky the first time I read about it. I was sure that the ATF was going to squash it and they did. I remember the excitement on the Gun and Knife forum when MKS was doing this and I kept thinking "you guys are suckers". Sorry it all turned out so badly.
The entire MKS debacle didn't center around their "re-welding" de-milled M14 receivers....but rather around the receivers they decided to use! The receivers in question were "de-milled in order to reassemble" in Isreal in the early 1970's. Similar receivers were very deliberately paired-up and then chop-sawed rather than flame-cut to obtain two long "front and rear" mated sections that were paired and wired together to facilitate re-assembly, and packed in oil-filled 55 gal drums. The de-milling procedure was SO transparently designed to facilitate re-assembly (and so correspondingly sure to attract the ATF's attention) that NO ONE would touch the receivers for nearly 3 decades, though they apparently were looked at by multiple people. ATF knew about these receiver chunks, and had let just about everyone know that they considered the de-milling procedure fraudulent, and the receivers STILL functional. It was NEVER a case of their "reassembly" being illegal, but rather that the de-milling of the "raw material" was contrary to ATF-approved procedure, and therefore fraudulent....meaning that the receivers were never really scrap!
The Kelly's knew ALL of this, and used those controversial receiver chunks anyway...and the rest, as they say, is history.
I can remember when I was getting paid to "...go BURRRRPPPPPPPPP"...and didn't find it all that attractive at the time, certainly not enough to redefine the limits of Federal Law from the inside of a jail-cell!Quote:
Originally Posted by 0311Shooter
This may be a matter of state law being more restrictive than Federal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve