WWI Marine Scout Sniper Accuracy - Wow!

History from the Rear!:p

One might think that there are no records of Marine sniper shots from WWI, but one would be wrong. There is a record of Marine Scout Sniper Pvt Roland Fischer killing six Germans at a range of 1400 yards on 11 Jun 1918. :madsmile: The shots were witnessed (written testimony) by an officer and a staff NCO.:thup: The rifle used? A 1903 Springfield fitted with a Winchester A5 scope with a very interesting serial number. :dancingbanana: Those shots were made using the ammo of the day, not reloads or Match grade ammo, and under direct artillery fire and severe combat conditions.:bow: The very proficent Marine Sniper was subsequently wounded by artillery fire for his effort.:crying:

Most WWI Marine Sniper kills in one day (so far) was twelve Germans, a feat accomplished by the indomitable "Old Corps" Marine Sniper Pvt (GSgt) Walter Cook on 2 Jun 1918.:wave:

How about them apples?:super: Move over Hathcock, those boys could shoot too.:cheers:

Semper Fi,

Jim:cool:

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the great post.

Any info on how many shots Pvt. Fischer fired? Figure at 1400 yards maybe he and his spotter remained in one position since the distance would make it hard for the Huns to locate them? Guess they did since they put artillery on the man. Maybe it was a good guess and a big spread.

Remember reading another of your posts about snipers not being especially liked by regular troops because they drew big shells their way. Think that was you?

Hey...did that rifle serial happen to have a "666" in it, would be appropriate for a "Devil Dog" to be shootin' it.

Death to bad guys,

Robert/Lancebear

Robert,

I don't have the narrative in front of me, but I don't recall any mention of the number of shots he took, but he had no spotter. He was firing from a haystack.

Artillery was the solution to snipers firing from a distance for both sides, and the snipers did draw artillery fire. The Marines seemed to have accepted this fact moreso than their Army counterparts. German snipers firing in close were promptly dispatched by the Marines by whatever means they had at hand. This particular Marine sniper survived horrendous battles and a wound only to die from Spanish Influenza just before the Armistice.

The rifle he was using didn't have a "666" in it, but it was from a set of rifles not attributed to Marine Corps use. I have recently gained access to a large number of Belleau Woods Marine rifle serial numbers, and they were not what I expected except for the sniper rifles. I do know for a fact that Niedner mounted sniper rifles made the trip, but I have yet to identify any of the 1918 Winchester mounted sniper rifles at Belleau Woods. Marine snipers were used extensively at Belleau Woods, but I have found little evidence of similar large use of snipers at Soissons or Mont Blanc (probably due to terrain). The final drive in the north edge of Belleau Woods was preceded by a mass of Marine snipers picking off Boche machinegun crews (Lee's idea) followed by a massive artillery barrage. The results were devastating to the Germans, and led to a final successful assault.

Semper Fi,
Jim

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the extra details, seems like the Marines figured it out in the end and made the Boche pay in spades. Gotta' get back to reading and get some more books about Belleau.

Hittin' the show in Kenner tomorrow. Hope to sell probably the best '03 that will be in the house and also trade a Colt revolver for an antique Winchester .44-40 rifle that I have been wanting for awhile if the guy still has it.

When does your book come out?:).

Man...the information you find.

Cheers to the brave and the smart,

Robert Lancebear

So as i read in a older thread they use the rifle for sniping also without a scope. Then my Winchester could also have been such a sniper rifle.

Regards

Gunner

No book. I just like to do research. It keeps me awake on those long drives to work. Besides, someone has to speak for the "old" Marines who gave their all. Speaking of old Marines, If you check the Muster Rolls, you will see that most of the "Old Salts" died on the 6th of June. It was the fresh young Marines who won that battle in the end, and the subsequent battles were won by lowly replacements. A Marine is a Marine, and once a Marine, always a Marine.

Besides, I was trying to understand the internal forces that would convince men to walk, not run, across 600 yards of open field in the face of dozens of blazing interlocking machine guns. I have decided it was E'sprit de Corps.

Semper Fi,
Jim

It must been this E`sprit de Corps there is no other logically explanation to do
such things, with that thoughts: "When does it hit me?" in your mind ! You wrote about a long way to get to work, what is a long way for you? Here you can say there is a long way when you have to drive for an hour or so.

Regards

Gunner

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gunner

So as i read in a older thread they use the rifle for sniping also without a scope. Then my Winchester could also have been such a sniper rifle.

Regards

Gunner

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Gunner, if you are referring to the Marines, your Winchester could never be one of those rifles. I have found many instances of individual Marines "sniping" with open sighted rifles as a matter of necessity, but the Marine Scout Snipers used Winchester A5 scoped rifles.

Semper Fi,
Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gunner

It must been this E`sprit de Corps there is no other logically explanation to do
such things, with that thoughts: "When does it hit me?" in your mind ! You wrote about a long way to get to work, what is a long way for you? Here you can say there is a long way when you have to drive for an hour or so.

Regards

Gunner

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My work commute is 72 miles one way (Burgaw to Spivey's Corner).:bow: That is an improvement, as my last job was 75 miles one way (Corpus Christi to Rosita).:thup: Someday I will have a job in the same County where I live. It will be the first time since 1985. I used to be lucky if my job was in the same state I lived in (lived in Texas, worked in Louisiana, 1982-1985).:cheers:

Semper Fi,
Jim:cool:

Hi Jim,

here we have some Truck-drivers they have a document from M.A.N (a truck maker) wich says they had driven M.A.N for more than 1.5 millions of kilometers. You will have this in miles to work. I am a bit better i have only 54 km all the way to and back from work.

Regards

Gunner

What are you doing in Bavaria? I have never been to Europe, and I suspect I am missing something. I want to make the battlefield tours someday. I have been comparing the original WWI Lambert coordinate battlefield maps to current Google Earth presentations, and I am amazed how little the French terrain has changed in 90 years.

Those long drives give one time to think.

Jim

Hi Jim,
i am working in Germany smallest car factory where i am responsible for the interieur parts wich we make in fine leather and wood. When you will come to Europe there are many battlefield aerea`s not so far away. You can follow the war`s from Roman Empire to WWII. There is the Limes not so far away from the battlefields of WWI and just around the corner you have relics from WWII. I´ve been at Verdun and you always can see the destroyings from the big mortars and the heavy artillery. They also have a bunker in Verdun where they have the noises of incoming artillery in a dark and sticky room, so that you can get a little feeling of that what they must endure for hours. Or the bunkers in Switzerland. They are masters in camouflage. They camouflaged heavy artillery as barns and suddenly the barns began to move and you see 15cm twins. Or houses with MG`s in it and mountains where they started jets with catapults. But we have also a lot of interresting and peaceful history here. So if you want to make a trip to good old Europe you have to spend a little time to see all these things. And make a trip to Bavaria then i can show you also nice things around Munich. What`s your job in the States?

Regards

Gunner

I do research (surprise, surprise!!) on anaerobic thermophilic bacteria, particularly methanogenic bacteria and methanogenesis. Essentially, I produce methane from swine wastes, both manure and production processing waste. I am in the 1st stages of converting a 77 Jeep CJ7 to run on methane (CNG) produced from swine wastes. I call it "Pig Power". It has a 324 ci V8 with Keith Black hyperutectic pistons (high silicon) and a lot of other goodies. So if you see a Jeep blow by you with an old white bearded guy laughing, and an exhaust that smells a little like pig poop, it will be me!

Sounds icky, but its FREE fuel to me!

Bavaria sounds good. I just had a visitor from Slovakia that was getting married for the fifth time (each younger than the previous). He says the Slovakian women look pretty good. Maybe a multi-purpose trip is in order.

Jim

Hi Jim, You really knocked me out with your anaerobic thermophilic....thing. But i hope i can see this car with the white bearded man and smell those well perfumed exhausts ( i can see it in my mind:-) ) Hope to see you on your trip.

Best regards

Gunner

BTW. : We have a pig farm near the town, so you can fill the tank to blow down our streets.

I couldn't build a car. The bacteria thing is much more simple than it sounds. Basically, I train bacteria to flourish in environments they normally might not appreciate, like high ammonia environments. Think of it as similar to training horses, or trial and error genetic changes (orchids).

Now you know why I like researching Marines. No smell!

Jim

Jim, i can build the interieur of exclusiv cars but i have no idea of your work. That is why i say everybody is important by his job. I like the research too. But i do it not at marines, except C. Hathcock, Land, Gulbertson and your very good trained reckon forces, i do it at german paratroopers from WWII. Because my grandpa was one of it and in special ops platoon. He never spoke about it , but when you do a persistant research you can find out a lot of his history.

Regards

Gunner

Gunner,

Very brave men were on both sides of that fight. I found it interesting that in WWI, my grandfather (167th Infantry) was transported by Vietnamese, whom I would later fight in RVN. My grandfather liked the Vietnamese, and found them "colorful". I had a different opinion, although it has changed over the years. My uncle fought the Chinese in Korea, and one of my very good friends is Chinese. My father fought against your grandfather, but I asked him how he felt about the Germans in general, and he laughed. He said the German soldiers probably felt exactly the same way he did about the war (?).

The wars are over for my grandfather (deceased), me, my uncle (still living), and my dad (still living). Not one of us harbors any ill will towards our old enemies.

Marine Sgt. Arthur R. M. Ganoe probably said it best during WWI's Belleau Woods battle while describing battle preparations for one of the drives into the woods:

"We vowed again to do our very best in the coming fight that the world might see a speedy end of the outrageous clique of men who send to hopeless slaughter the children of their nation for the sake of mere temporal pomp and power and to protect their own rinocerous hides."
I can't imagine a Marine Sergeant being so eloquent, or even being able to spell "rinocerous" correctly. The good Sgt was subsequently wounded in action.

Semper Fi, Gunner,
Jim

Jim, your father got right. My Grandpa said also that the war is a stupid thing that better had been fought between the politicians and the generals and the folks should better talk, sing , dance and laugh together. Great discription from this Sgt. When the distance between us where not so big, i`ll invite you to trink a good glass of beer tonight. You have a good point of view!

Best regards

Gunner

The glass of beer sounds good, but I don't drink (anymore). Maybe a cold glass of water?

Take care Gunner.

Jim

Take care Jim.

Gunner

Jim,

That is sure some accurate precision rifle fire... How about the fire the 2nd Marines employed during the advance across the wheat field; 750 yards with the battle sight. Also impressive.

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Originally Posted by stripper clip

Jim,

That is sure some accurate precision rifle fire... How about the fire the 2nd Marines employed during the advance across the wheat field; 750 yards with the battle sight. Also impressive.

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I agree.

The best example of the Marine's accuracy was the defense of Hill 142, where by all accounts, Marine and German, the Marines were nailing the Germans at ranges from 300 to 800 yards, leaving the German dead in piles.:madsmile:

An interesting side note, Col. Catlin describes the Marines 6th Reg advance on the afternoon of 6 Jun as a casual walk across the wheat fields. Lt. P. S. Taylor, 4th Platoon Commander of the 78th Company, 6th Marines, describes it as a dead run. Lt. Taylor was none other than Paul Schuster Taylor, the radical agricultural economist at Berkeley for many years (until 1984).:yikes:

Lt. Taylor had an unobstructed view from the right flank due to the shape of the Marine front lines. I suspect the assault began as a walking assault as witnessed by Catlin, Catlin gets shot by the sniper, and subsequently, the German machineguns start taking a serious toll on the 6th Marines, vastly hastening their speed of advance (or should I say seach for shelter?). There was none in those wheat fields (south of Belleau Wood, west of Bouresches).:bow:

Notes:
1. Holcomb only allowed Sharpshooters and Expert shooters in his battalion.:super:

2. Messersmith liked tall Marines, as 76 Marines in the 78th Company were over 6 feet tall.:beerchug:

3. Lt. Eddy, 2nd Platoon Commander, 78th Company, 6th Marines, wasn't a Marine (he was an Army officer):confused:.

4. Capt Zane's wife was the daughter of the sitting California Governor.:dunno:

5. Over a dozen surviving Marines from the 4th Brigade wrote books after the war, and many more wrote monologues or published diaries.:cheers:

6. On 3 June 1918, the French occupied both Belleau Wood and Boureches, all the Marines had to do was occupy the territory without firing a shot.:thdown:

Semper Fi,
Jim:cool: