Can anyone identify this WWI era rifle range?:dunno:
Jim:cool:
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Can anyone identify this WWI era rifle range?:dunno:
Jim:cool:
Jim, would it be possible to post the pic with a higher resolution? It might make it easier to see.
thanks
-Jeff L
The site won't let me post a higher resolution. I had to downsize the photo file with Gimp to get it to load.
Jim
Jim, the forth shooter on the line looks like you. Can't your remember?
John,
Of all people, I thought you might recognize the range from personal memory.:dancingbanana: My memory is pretty sketchy.:crying: Could this be Camp Perry of the old days?:bow:
Jim:cool:
Here is a higher-resolution version of the photo.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6_lowres-1.jpg
After reviewing LTC Brophy's book I think the second rifle may be a Winchester Type I sniper rifle. If so it would date the photo to circa 1922.
The picture is the property of Bolo Badge.
We both became interested in the picture because every man on the line is firing a Winchester A5 scoped rifle. There is a M1917 about halfway down the line sitting on the range post with no scope. The second rifle from the front end of the line appears to be quite different from the rest, although it too has a Winchester A5 scope in Winchester #2 mounts with "Marine" bases with the rear base mounted on the front receiver bridge.
The men are wearing campaign hats with cords and acorns, and the two men standing on the line in the distance bear a strong resemblance to Blackjack Pershing and Lejeune (big ears and shape of head). Odds are it is neither man. Marine officers or Army soldiers? Maybe a uniform expert can tell us.
The rifles that I can isolate are two bolt low-wood stocks, which coupled with the mounts eliminates them from being the WWI Niedner and Winchester mounted sniper rifles that went to the Corps.
It appears to me to be a practice session for a rifle team, albeit a very large rifle team!
Input?
Jim
By the way, they are firing at 1000 yard targets, and there appear to be mesquite trees in the background (southwest).
Jim
After looking at Bolo Badge's photo, I went back and examined some old pictures I have with my new software. I found something very interesting. This is a picture of a Marine Sniper in France in 1918. The sniper rifle he is holding is the third rifle issued to him. I have pictures of all three rifles, and I know who owns one of them (the first, and it isn't me).
I know the serial numbers and have pictures of all three, but I had always assumed this was the second rifle. It is not. The first two rifles had modified A5 scopes in Mann-Niedner mounts. This rifle, the one he took to France, has simple Winchester #2 mounts and Winchester bases. Look closely and you will see the button on the base (the head of the screw that tightens the scope mount to the base). You will see one other thing that is as rare as hen's teeth, and only the second one I have ever seen. Look at the ocular lense and you will see a amber (yellow really) adapter attached to the scope. This was used to improve sight picture in dim light. I have a picture of one detached from the scope, but this is the first time I have seen one on a sniper scope.:madsmile:
I have had this photo a long time, but with the software I had, I couldn't see the features I have mentioned. I acquired some new software, and voila!:D
It seems the Marines had one heck of a lot of sniper rifles of all arrangements of mounts and bases.:thup:
Thanks, Bolo Badge!
Jim:cool:
Jim, What new software did you acquire? I have a host of old family photos that I need to begin copying to CD. It will become a full time job for quire awhile.
Check your email.
Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Tarleton
Jim, will you copy that email to me? How hard is it to operate. I still have yet to figure out the adobe program I have. :banghead: Their instructions aren't very helpful. They assume I know more than I do about computers. :bitch:
Thanks,
Emri
Emri,
No need. I don't like Adobe either, although the two I use are very similar. I actually use two programs, one is Gimp, which allows one to reduce the photo file size (required for some forums), and the other is Picasa, which I like, but there are issues when saving a file. Back up any file you upload into Picasa before uploading.
Both these programs are downloadable for free off the net. Google sponsors Picasa, and Gimp has been around in various forms for some time.
You can't improve a photo much if it is of low resolution. Use the highest resolution photo file, and you will be surprised what you can do. The original file used here is 15MM byte scan from a high resolution photo.
I am surprised no one has commented on the Marine use of the #2 mount on the front receiver ring and Winchester commercial bases on their AEF sniper rifles (second photo). Remember, that rifle was most likely scope mounted after the war started, or very close thereto. Also, the original photo appears to be an Army match, or very large practice session, using A5 scoped 1903 rifles in #2 mounts and "Marine" bases. That photo is most likely pre-1926 and post-WWI.
Two very interesting photos.
Jim
Maybe its me but the shooter closest in the picture looks like he's shooting just a 03 with the site leaf up, what looks like a attached scope is just his spotting scope off to the left. The pictures angle makes it look as if the scopes obj lens is set into the handguard.
The rest of the shooters look like there shooting service rifles the scopes that I do see are spotting types from that era, only shooter #2 rifle looks scoped too me.
I just got new speck's so I see real good now.
All rifles in the photo are scoped with Wincester A5's.:super:
The first rifle is parallel with a spotting scope that masks the A5. Shown in the crp is the M1917 sitting on the range post.:madsmile:
Take a look at a random crop of the original photo.:beerchug:
Jim:cool:
Crop the original photo and mask out the spotting scope from shooter #1 and you will see the A5. The second shooter has the most interesting rifle, different from all the others, but still scoped with an A5 in #2 mounts and "Marine" bases.
Jim
Better get those specks checked!:madsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGrath
Jim:cool:
Thanks killjoy:madsmile: for shootin me down, I can barely make a post and your tellin me too crop this and that:banghead: I say this all in jest. :thup:
Its a good thing you posted the second picture as I wouldn't have believed it with out seeing it for myself.
All in jest, Phil - truly. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, as I had to acquire two new programs to see them. The first time I examined the photo, I missed them completely - every one of them.
Bolo Badge is the one who detected the spotter scope obscuring rifleman #1's A5 and the spurs on #2 man, not me. He sent me an email pointing it out, so I can't make any claims as to being a brillaint detective of any sort. It was all shown to me by Bolo Badge, who is the owner of the original. He is the sharp eye of the group, along with Rollins74. So I am in the same leaky boat.
I was teasing you, Phil. I have new specs also (sorely needed), and they didn't help me much either.
Every man on that firing line (50 men) appears to be armed with an A5 scoped 1903. Never seen so many in one picture before. If you want me to crop a section of that photo for you, I will do so gladly. Just let me know.
Jim
If you can date the photo to circa 1922, then I would ask:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolo Badge
1. How many USMC bases in the continental USA existed in 1922? What were the geographic locations of same? By process of elimination, eliminate those bases that are known to not fit the profile of the photo (topography, flora, etc...)
2. How many 1,000 yard military rifle ranges existed at that time? Cross reference against #1.
That should narrow the suspects to less than 10, maybe less than 5 locations that might fit the photo.
My .02
Using the maxium magnification available to me I can make out what I believe to be the words "National Brass" and "Hastings" on the ammunition box seen in the foreground. Using "Google" I find that there was a "National Brass and Copper Tube Company" in Hastings-on-the-Hudson, NY. They were a major supplier of ammunition during WWI. They are noted in "Hatcher's Notebook" as being the maker of the ammuniton being used when a few low numbered M1903 rifles failed.
Nice game we're playing here. Based off of their riding boots and what Jim pointed out as being mesquite trees (Southwest USA), I would say it's a cavalry unit in Texas maybe...
This is a second photo taken of the same firing line and shooters as the 1st photo. We think the range may be Camp Dix, but we are not certain.:confused:
This photo shows the 2nd rifleman's rifle from a better vantage point. It is an S stock, two bolt rifle with no handguard, a long barrel with no finish or front sight, a mounted Winchester A5 scope on Marine bases and in #2 mounts, and what appears to be some odd trigger attachment which isn't crystal clear in this low resolution photo. There is a pad attached to the bottom of the stock grip, and something attached to the trigger guard or trigger.:super:
The 1st soldier has a second rifle not obvious in the first photo. It is beneath the ammo box to his right. It has a Winchester A5 scope mounted on it also. I find it very odd that he would treat the rifle in this manner.:ugh:
The second photo is a poor resolution crop showing the 2nd shooter's rifle.:surrender:
Comments welcomed.
Jim:cool:
Hi Jim, thought this pic is alittle better but it seems not so.
Regards
Gunner
Gunner,
I was hoping someone could tell me what kind of trigger attachment that is. The original picture doesn't have enough resolution to isolate it clearly. I looked at it in alternate colors, and it appears to have something like a watch fob hanging from the trigger.
I don't quite grasp the block under the grip's purpose. Maybe one of the dedicated paper punchers or collectors of weird trigger attachments (I wonder who might that be, heh Gary?) might weigh in.
I think those first two shooters might have been serious competitors. I also think their scopes may be Stevens scopes. The second shooter is wearing shades!
Jim
Jim,
the wood piece on the rifle seems to me that he mount this becuase he has larger hands. If you take a look at his hand on the forestock you can see that the hand is not the smallest. That with the watch fob can be it in deed.
I read about target shooting a while ago and there the author (?) wrote, that he used a cord with a woodend piece to pull the trigger because it will be more evenly than pull with the finger.
From a scan of the original photo from Bolo Badge, here are some details of the pad on the stock grip and the object below the trigger guard.
Second shooter's rifle:
1. Full length S stock
2. Cut down grip area with block attached
3. "Watch fob" is due to rifle shadow, nothing attached to trigger
4. Winchester A5 scope in Marine mounts, with rear base on front receiver bridge (7.2" spacing)
5. Barrel appears to be longer than 24.2" and unfinished
6. Shooter is wearing shades (cool and safe)
7. Stock may be a single bolt, as I can't detect a front bolt
8. Only rear band is attached, no front band
9. Appears to be US Army Infantry
10. Shooting from 1000 yard marker
11. MAY be Camp Dix, NJ
Comments?
Jim
The location could well be Camp Dix, NJ. Another photo in this group indicates that it was taken at Camp Dix. In the opinion of a Texas A&M horticulture professor, none of the trees in the background appear to be mesquites.
Using measurements of the second shooter's rifle (from scanned photo) relative to the dimensions of my own M1903, I calculate the overall length of his rifle to be 6.5 inches longer than a standard '03 rifle. Assuming standard stock length (from triggerguard to buttstock, at least), that would make the barrel length approximately 30.5 inches.
Calculations:
My rifle: 43.375" (overall length) and 14" (top corner of buttstock to middle of bolt handle base)
Shooter #2's rifle: 228 mm (overall length) and 64 mm (top corner of buttstock to middle of bolt handle base)
Shooter #2's rifle overall length = (14/64)(228) = 49.875"
Yep. Some of these guys are wearing the leather leggings AF Medic was inquiring about on another forum.
Festus
Looking for a good way to occupy myself on a cold and rainy night I decided to take a relook at some of my old postings. While browsing this thread I noticed that the firing pin rod (aka striker rod, etc) on the rifle used by the second shooter appears to be different from those I have on my issue rifles.
In fact it looks to be very similar to those I have seen on the M1/M2 series of .22 caliber rifles.
Were competition shooters allowed to modify their rifles or are my old eyes just playing tricks on me again?
Thanks.