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I got a M-84 scope yesterday (serial 2025), and I am not sure why but the scope is out of focus at longer distances than about 10 feet. Just like binoculars that you are supposed to focus manually. Is there a way to manually focus the scope? I can't figure it out! Thanks
After getting a beautiful M1D with all accessories from the CMP last year, I went in search of information on the M84. Not much out there! A friend loaned me his 1947 copy of War Department Technical Manual TM9-1275 Ordnance Maintenance, U.S. Rifles, Cal. .30, M1, M1C and M1D (Sniper's). This lists specs on the M81 and M82 scopes as follows:
wt. of scope - 0.84 lb
Focus - Universal
Maximum useful range - 800 to 1,000 yd
Field of vision at 100 yd - 35 ft
Magnification - 2.5 X
Eye relief - 5 in. (approx).
Both were Lyman Alaskan scopes produced for the military. The M81 had a cross-wire reticle and the M82 a tapered post, otherwise they were identical.The reticle was internally adjustable for windage and elevation in one minute of angle clicks. Numerical graduation marks had a value of two m.o.a.
The M84 scope replaced the M81 and M82 and was standard issue in April 1945. Peter Senich provided the most detailed information on these scopes that I have found in his book LIMITED WAR SNIPING, Paladin Press, 1977. I found this book at the library while researching info. on the M1D and M84. Chapter 4, Semi-Automatic Sniping System, The M1 Garand, goes into considerable detail on the history of the M1C, M1D and their scope and mount development programs. Page 63 opens the history on the M84 in early 1945. As a 2.2 X conventional design (T134) very similar to the M82, it was to compete in field tests against 3 X and 4.5 X designs in June of '45. For unknown reasons those scopes were rejected and the T134 adopted in April '45 as the M84. It has a universal focus, field of view is 27 feet at 100 yd, diameter is .870 in., length with rubber eye-piece and sunshade extended is 13.2 in., the reticle is a post with horizontal cross-wire, eye relief is 5 in. and it was sealed with rubber gaskets to keep out moisture. In my shooting with it, the top of the post appears to subtend 3 m.o.a., or 3 in. at 100 yd, 6 in. at 200 yd. etc. The elevation dial has 32 threads per inch which provides 40 m.o.a. of vertical movement of the post for one complete revolution of the drum. The finger adjustable knob gives 1 m.o.a. for each click, which are usually felt rather than heard. The elevation scale starts at zero yards and elevates to 900 yards with line marks every 50 yd. and numbers at each hundred yard increment. The windage knob has 20 m.o.a. adjustment both left and right of zero. It has a total windage range of 100 m.o.a. to allow for any mount misalignment. Like the elevation knob, each click moves the post 1 m.o.a.
Since the M84 was to replace those M81/82 scopes coming out of service, only a small number had been produced by the end of WW2. Certainly, none saw combat. The M84 was standard for the M1C, M1D and Springfield M1903-A4, but was not available in quantity until the Korean War. Libby-Owens-Ford was the military contractor. The M1D/M84 combination was a sniper rifle that could be assembled at the division armorer level as no drilling and tapping of the reciever was required as with the M1C. As a result, many more M1D's were prepared and distributed, seeing service into the late 70's.
An additional source of information on the M1D/M84 is the book, THE LONG RANGE WAR: SNIPING IN VIETNAM by Peter Senich, 1994. In chapter 1 he goes into some detail on the build up of U.S. military activity in the 60's and their reliance on the M1D. Very detailed information with excellent black and white photo's showing details of the various rifle/scope combinations in development are included.. As to the number of M84 scopes produced, the only hint I could locate was in a photo credit Senich gives on page 19, "....with a total of well over 40,000 M84 telescopic sights manufactured before production finally ended, and with the U.S. policy of "surplus disposal" such as it is, this 2.2 power scope will undoubtedly remain in service someplace on this globe for years to come."
I'm just grateful that the CMP made these M1D Garands available to good citizens and that I was fortunate enough to draw one in the last lottery. And what a fine specimen it is. Original Springfield in the 3022xxx serial range with a 1952 SA barrel with a fresh crown, milled SA trigger guard with all matching parts, new M84 in the original sealed packaging, clean walnut stock with no dents or dings and all the proper stamps, uniform grey parkerizing and all the accessories! HOT Dang! I just couldn't wait to get it all put together, cleaned, lubed and out to the range for a test drive, (which ought to drive the collectors/profiteers crazy). As an ex-SWAT team counter-sniper I have a real appreciation for the origins of our current equipment. The M1D/M84 was a real evolutionary step that led us to the more accurate systems that we benefit from today. Of course it doesn't deliver the pin point precision that a tuned Rem. 700 or Stoner SR-25 will, and the lateral zero shift at different ranges must be accepted, but I wouldn't volunteer to thumb my nose at a competent marksman within 600 yards. My rifle groups into 2 m.o.a., or less at 200 yards and the zero is relatively repeatable if the same hand only torque and positioning is applied to the mount. Calibration of elevation adjustments coincide very well out to 600 yards with the M 72, 174 grain fmjbt match ammo or equivilent reloads using the Sierra 168 grain Matchking. As Senich points out, the interior black coating used to retard light scatter in the M84 has a tendancy to flake and adhere to the interior lens surfaces. So what, just ignore it like a couple of generations of soldiers have.
In my area we put on a "Vintage Sniper's Rifle" match once each summer. All prone, 20 rounds at 300, 500 and 600 yards. Any nations "as issued" Korean War or earlier sniper rifle qualifies. Snugging the M1D into my shoulder with a tight leather sling, checking the post for vertical, the wind direction and velocity, and the mirage boil, I can smell the leather cheek piece as breathing is checked and slack taken from the trigger. Concentration of focus spirals through the M84 and I'm transported to other times and places when men at arms gambled far higher stakes. For some reason, this keen appreciation of history, and freedom, just doesn't occur with the SR-25 from the 600 yard line. Hope this assists you in your search for more information on the M84.
--Bruce Jackson
...
M1 Garand Sniper Scope Images
The M-84 is a simple scope and the only adjustments are the erector assemble and the objective assembly. I would fist look at the scope ends and see if it has been taken apart before. I might be the objective lens that is not adjusted correctly. I have adjusted a number of these that some yahoo screwed up.
The M84 is a sealed scope. After 50-60 years, many of them have seals that have dried & cracked. You may just be seeing moisture trapped inside your scope; try warming it gently with a hair dryer to see if that resolves the problem.
In any case, it is probably time to send your scope to a repair technician for complete service, including new seals & nitrogen.
I have an M84 scope that could use some repair/cleaning.
Can anyone recomend a GOOD tech to do the job?
Thanks
Tom
Sarco has parts and the diagram of the workings.
Telescope M84
I'm also into photography, and I've purchased lenses cheaply that have had elements installed backwards. Could be something as simple as that. Stu
I believe Neal's recommendation is on target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Myers
Here is a list of technicians courtesy of Nicolaus and asssocates.
http://www.nicolausassociates.com/PD...ope-Repair.pdf
Elsewhere on the Nicolaus website you find a available a very high quality reproducttion of the M84 TM and another document which is a compilation of M84 drawings.
Regards,
Jim
Thank you for your replies, all! However, I do not think there is moisture, as the optic is clear for short distances, like maybe 10 feet, but for distances longer than that (like 100-200 yards) the view is out of focus and blurry. Otherwise the scope is clear; no debris or anything.
Adding to the problem: I am in Europe, and hence cannot have it fixed in the US. It is naturally possible there is some minor problem that anyone working with optics can fix...
It sounds like your objective lense assembly is not screwed in far enough. The front window is removable and you will see the objective assembly (there is a locking ring holding it in place). You will need to unscrew the locking ring 1/4 turn so the objective assembly can be screwed toward the reticle. This adjusts the parallax of the scope also. You want to set the parallax of the scope to 150 yards (measure out something that is 150 yards away). Look at the 150 object thru the scope while it is laying on a table or rest. Move your head up and down, or left to right slightly. If parallax is set properly, the 150 yard object will not move in relation to the reticle. If parallax is not set correctly, the 150 yard object will move in relation to the reticle. The ojective assembly might be hard to turn due to sealant. You will have to make a wrench to fit the assembly. I made one out of a piece of steel tubing. Send me your email address and I will send you some photos of what this looks like. Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinson
Hello. Sorry to bump this thread but I would love a pic of the tool. I sent you a PM.
By the way, here is the scope in question plus the rifle it is attached to.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Sorry, Just got back for a little family vacation trip. I'll get thoes photos together over the weekend. James
Twinson:
Is it just me and my poor vision, or the angle of the photograph; to me the sunshade appears to be way too short?
My bet is someone has messed with the front of the scope!
HTH
Hmm, now that you mention it, it does look short!Quote:
Originally Posted by relics6165
the sun shade is missing.....
Here is some info...
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250375432
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250375469
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250375492
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250375513
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250375534
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250375554
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250375575
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250375598
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250375995
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250376028
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...g?t=1250376060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinson
Excellent, thanks! I was afraid someone had messed with the scope in a bad way. I will try to find a sunshade somewhere, although this could be quite difficult. I don't suppose someone here is selling sunshades? ;)
Sarco has originals. They also have all the scope components. They have exploded views of the scope internals and part numbers. I posted a link in this thread about 2 weeks ago. Stu
Les Kraft has original sun shades. Excellent man to do business with. Kustom Kraft Gunsmithing.
Name: Kustom Kraft Gunsmithing Corporation
Street: 6 Walnut Valley Road
Columbia, nj 07832-2784
Phone: (908) 362-5944
What are your opinions on shooting this rifle? I am unsure of if it is a good idea or not. Mostly because of the scope: I heard it is possible for the paint to start flaking inside the scope? I would REALLY like to at least test-fire the rifle, but what do you guys think? One possibility would be to get a repro M-84, but they are rather expensive and hard to find here...
I shot mine a few times before putting it away, for whatever reason. It was way off paper at a 100 yds and at the full extent of the adjustment. If that happens to you there are instructions to show how to extend the el and wind nobs to allow further adjustment. I tried that and got the rifle on paper and in the X ring.
I may just get it out and pop a few more, I'm almost 60 yrs old and don't really know what I am saving it for. My eyes aren't getting any better and the M1D is a blast to shoot. Give it a try and have some fun.
Tom
Well, I am 30 and I kind of agree with you.:) Also, the way things are going in my homecountry I might not have any guns in the future. Maybe I'll just shoot it and enjoy itQuote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bowers
Back again, I finally got a GI sunshade for the scope.
I am having some trouble figuring out the correct installation of the split ring that came with the shade. The shade itself slides over the front of the scope, no problem, but I am wondering how to utilize the split ring. I suppose it is for locking the shade in place, but I can't figure out how. I feel so damn cautious all the time, and I figured it is always better to ask first, and then do :o
The manual juat says to "slide the sunshade over the tube and insert the split ring to secure it in place." Wish I could be of more help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beginner
Regards,
Jim
My M1D is set up with a Lyman Alaskan post & crosshair reticle. I put the M84 into storage. too many black flakes floating around inside the tube after a few shots. The 2.5x Alaskan scope is far less expensive than the M84 & is easier for me to shoot. Even with the leather cheek piece, I don't get a solid cheek weld (maybe it's me). But the M1D mount & scope are offset to the barrel, thus is difficult to sight in at different distances. Left-eye dominat shooters would appreciate this set-up. The CMP M1D and my Lyman Alaskan will shoot about 2" groups @ 100 yds with LC 72 ammo. I actually do better with no scope on a different M1 (non-bedded). It's good to hear that someone actually shoots their M1D!
out
Here is how the split ring attaches to the scope.
(assuming the sunshade is off of the scope)
Step 1: Slide the split ring over the objective end of the scope and let it set just in front of the turrets.
Step 2: Slide the sun shade over the objective end of the scope and move it all the way to the rear (retracted)
Step 3: Holding onto the sun shade, start placing the split ring under the rear edge of the sunshade. There is a small lip at the rear of the sunshade (inside) that the split ring snaps into. Just start at one end of the ring and work your way around.
If you need pictures, let me know. James
I just got the manuals for the M84 in the mail from far far away (the US :p ) and I am all set, so thank you for your kind offer Twinson, but I managed to figure it out. These manuals are awesome, and I just love browsing and learning from them
Did you send your scope out? who did you use & how did it come out?
Thanks for any updates from anyone.
Tom