Guy had a couple of boxes of these at the last show. Any idea what it is for?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...liber007-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...liber008-1.jpg
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Guy had a couple of boxes of these at the last show. Any idea what it is for?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...liber007-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...liber008-1.jpg
Jst a guess, but that couldn't be for the M1903A2, which was used as a sub-caliber device for artillery?
Any way to search the drawing number and find out more?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian
Probably was a speccial round for "spotting" with the sub-caliber artillery attachment.
FWIW,
Emri
Was the A2 was out as early as the cartridges, 1924?
It could have been for one of the direct fire sub calibers but I doubt it was used as a spotter. Spotting cartridges were marked as such on the box, and consisted of a flash projectile. Don't know if they had spotting cartridges that early either. My guess is this one is ball?
If so, it was probably the standard "teach and load" cartridges used for direct fire guns with sub-caliber devices.
Just a guess.
Over the years our military have devised a number of sub caliber devices to save money. you will find units for artillery all the way down to .30 cal. its was much cheaper to install a sub caliber device in a 75 mm and fire a .30 cal round than to train the boys with the more expensive full size round. That is what your rounds are for. I believe you can still get some govt..30 cal to.22 inserts from Numrich or sarco can't remember which right now.
I think the date might be a little early for spotter rounds. Nice find,
I think the date (1924) is too early to have been used with the m1903A2 which seemed to have come about closer to WW2 when there was a pretty serious need for economical training.
Probably an experimental put up. Possibly for one of the semiautos under development or study at the time.
Kind of weird nomenclature "Subcaliber Cartridges for Subclaiber Cartridges". ??
Regards,
Jim
The mistake made on the internet and among collectors is everything with a large bore is called "artillery". Artillery can be used for direct fire in an emergency, but it is designed for indirect fire where the person aiming the device is not seen and can be miles away. I know of no sub caliber devices for artillery pieces. We may have had one for the 75mm pack howitzer because it could be used as a perimeter guard with Direct Fire capabilities.
During WWII we had 37mm and 57mm Direct Fire Guns which used sub caliber devices for training.
When I was in basic the 30-06 was still around as a sub caliber cartridge for the 106mm Recoilless Rifle.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/subcal-1.jpg
The 90mm used the 7.62mm round.
The British used the carbine round for a sub caliber when we transferred to them the 57mm Recoilless Rifle.
Well I am still clueless what subcaliber device it was used on then. I was unaware of any special load for the subcaliber devices. I am pretty sure it is was to early for use on the 03A2 as they were a WWII item and this box is dated 1924. I just wonder if it is loaded hotter or lighter then standard?
DRB
These Sub-Caliber Cartridges are based on the .30 Cal Army case (30-40 Krag). “They were designed to be fired from sub caliber barrels mounted within or on the outside of the main artillery gun tube”. The first of these sub-caliber cartridges were developed in 1902. Some had enlarged primers to be used with the standard artillery firing pin and some had 0.317 dia Berdan primers. Some had typical .30 Krag projectiles, but starting in 1924 the some of these sub-caliber cases were loaded with the 1924 National Match 172gr., gilding metal-jacket, boattail bullet. This loading was adapted in 1925 as the Cartridge, Sub-Caliber, Cal..30, Model of 1925. Beginning with Lot 30, (FA 28), M1ball bullets appear to have been used.
These cartridges were designed primarily for the sub caliber tube used in the 3-in. seacoast gun.
During 1927-27 a quantity of Model 1925 sub caliber ammunition was released to shooters thru the DCM as a substitute for Cal. .30 Ball, M1898 Krag cartridges, which at that time were not available.
All of the above is from “History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition” by Hackley, Woodin and Scration, Vol. I. This volume has a lot more information on this cartridge, I have given you just a bit of this information.
DRB, there is a illustration on page 93,, very similar to yours but it was loaded on Mar 20, 1923 and is from Lot 20
Any one with even a passing interest in U.S. Military small arms, should have all three volumes. Vol. I & II are available, Vol. III is finished but not yet printed.
Added note: this ammunition was available thru WWII.
45B20
When I was at the rifle range, I noticed an unfired .22 cartridge.
It's case looked like a .22 long but had a bullet larger then the case! My gunsmith said it is a subsonic round (quiet) made by Aquila. There is an A on the botom of the round.
Anybody else see one? I was told you could shoot neighborhood chipmunks etc without disturbing the neighbors!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45B20
Thanks for the information so they are Krag ammo. The 3 inch seacoast usage makes sense as there used to be all kinds of Forts around here gaurding the entry to Puget sound. I got a box of regular Krag ammo from the same guy that was loaded in 1910 by Frankford Arsenal and a box of 30 model 1906 loaded in 1920 that is for aircraft use according to the box.
DRB --
PM sent.
--RtL
I checked with my friend, who is sort of the John Beard of coast artillery. Here's what he said:
I'd have to see an image of an actual round (primer view) to identify if it was used in a 3-inch gun. The 3-inch M1902 and M1903 gun used semi-solid bronze dummy shells with a 30.06 barrel inserted through the middle. Two leaf springs held the sub caliber 30.06 round in the breech end of the barrel. The round included a special primer that would work with a standard 3-inch firing pin. This firing pin was much larger than the standard rifle pin. The gunners would usually load 10-15 sub-caliber rounds at a time for gun practice.
Yep, sounds like their 60g .22 subsonic round. Very quiet.
Carteach0: Aguila .22 Sniper Subsonic 60 grain solid
Rick
Remember, this Sub-Caliber ammo is based on the 30-40 case and not the 30-06 case. The box DRB shows appears to be sealed, ie unfired. Hopefully, he has some fired cases.
Hackley, Woodin & Scranton goes thru the problems that artillery size firing pins created with the predecessors (called, Artillery Drill Cartridge) of these M1925 Sub-Caliber rounds. They tried larger primers, they also tried another cup over the primer. The problem was finally solved by using the standard size primer, but made out of monel metal, “designed to function equally well under the light blow of the standard rifle firing pin of the heavy blow of the sea coast gun firing pin”. That resulted in the, Sub-Caliber Cart. Cal..30. With the loading of the1924 NM bullet(Lot 30) the round was called the M1925.
DRB
You should take this over to the cartridgecollectors.org , (home of the IAA). They had a interesting discussion on this round about a year ago and would be very helpful.
45B20
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/461399-1.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by A. F Medic
Click here.