AIM Surplus 03A4 clones

I received, as did many of you probably, an email from AIM Surplus over the weekend and in it I found clone 03A4 rifles that had what they advertised as new M73B1 scopes.

Two questions arise:

1) Who is building these rifles. They advertise original parts on old receivers with new wood and scopes.

2) Who is making the scopes and are these good reproductions that could be used on clones for re-enactment rifles or are they just pure junk?

Just a couple of questions for the experts, if no one minds.
:sos:

Mack:
could be the Gibbs rifles that have started to appear. Saw one last week, and it really looks nice. It is built on an A3 reciever and the the scope is new made with a new stock and new manufactured barrel. Looks really nice.

Ken

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Originally Posted by mack

I received, as did many of you probably, an email from AIM Surplus over the weekend and in it I found clone 03A4 rifles that had what they advertised as new M73B1 scopes.

Two questions arise:

1) Who is building these rifles. They advertise original parts on old receivers with new wood and scopes.

2) Who is making the scopes and are these good reproductions that could be used on clones for re-enactment rifles or are they just pure junk?

Just a couple of questions for the experts, if no one minds.
:sos:

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1. I don't think they (Gibbs) is advertising that they are using original parts. In addition to the stock, barrel and scope the scope base and bolt are reproductions as well. (The bolt may have been modified from an original 03-A3 bolt.) The receiver and possibly some of the small parts atre likely the only original pieces.

2. I think its too soon to tell about the long term durability of the scopes.

Regards,

JIm

i saw and held 2 repro A4,s made by gibbs, guy selling them was pretty proud of them, and how cool he thought they were.
and heres my take..in one word??JUNK.
in many words.
receivers, recovered drill rifles, not an issue, but they should be advertised as such,
bases, same maker as the China made Redfield base being sold in the plastic bubble packs.
rings..same thing made in China, and they look it, they dont fit right.
bolts? pooo poo, they could have done a better job.
stocks? they look ok, not bad, not outstanding.
barrels? they are OK, dont like the cheesy GIBBS mark on the end.
scopes??not bad, still China made, and marked as such, better then the rest of the rig.
fit and finish??fair fit, poor finish,, is likely painted and not a phosphate like it should, done to save money and hide the weld marks on the receiver.
sling. poo poo, bad reproduction, keepers wont stay in place, could have done a better job.
all in all, the price they are asking is fair, would i want one? no.
dont think id take one to the range. safe? maybe. accuate? doubt it.
for a guy that doesnt want to spend the buck on a real one, ok.
for the guy that doesnt want or know how to put one together, ok.
i say a better job could have been done..
funny thing.
the seller offered some Redfield bases on the table, to fix the bad ones on the rifle.
so i commented. they are the same base, minus the R mark, he argued, no they are made in the USA,
so i picked one up, turn it around, and had him read to me what it said..
MADE IN CHINA..
hmmmmm, could i be wrong???

Gibbs got a pile of drill rifle parts in a swap. Or so the story goes. The whole gun is being parted overseas and Gibbs is assembling them in the USA. If you like Chinese scopes and scrap/drill parts go for it. I'll pass, sorry.

The one that I saw at the NRA convention was garbage. I would rather put a fake together from a sporterized rifle and a civilian 330 then waste money on the Gibbs rifle. I have seen airsoft rifles at gunshows that look more authentic.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/1903a4.jpg
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Item#1903A4
US model M1903A4 Springfield bolt action 30.06 Rifles. These Rifles are built using original Remington-made World War II M1903A3 actions and turned-down bolts. These fine Rifles feature newly manufactured 4-groove barrels identical to the originals. Each receiver is carefully drilled and tapped using replicas of the original "Redfield" rings and mounts and an exact copy of the M73B1 scope, used on the 1st model M1903A4's. Each barreled action has the original military parkerized finish with beautiful walnut stock furniture, again, identical to the originals.
Each includes a replica of the M1907 U.S. issued leather sling and OD Green canvas carrying case. Not just exceptional in looks and finish, each gun is made to hold to the accuracy standards of the U.S. Military during World War II. These Rifles are currently in very high demand and we have a limited supply, so order while you can!

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AIM New Rifles! New Rifles!
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re:
"Not just exceptional in looks and finish, each gun is made to hold to the accuracy standards of the U.S. Military during World War II. "

i don't think the government did anything to make o3a4's any more accurate than 03a3's. a 4 groove barrel was not an accuracy improvement as far as i know.
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i would assume headspace has been checked and would expect them to shoot about 4.0 MOA or so with plain vanilla milsurp 30-06.
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[QUOTE=goo;73721re:
"Not just exceptional in looks and finish, each gun is made to hold to the accuracy standards of the U.S. Military during World War II. "

i don't think the government did anything to make o3a4's any more accurate than 03a3's. a 4 groove barrel was not an accuracy improvement as far as i know.
..
i would assume headspace has been checked and would expect them to shoot about 4.0 MOA or so with plain vanilla milsurp 30-06.
...[/QUOTE]

It has been reliably reported that Remington selected A4 barrels for internal dimensional tolerance. In fact most A4's were ultimately assembled with two groove barrels.

If you are interested in a real "consumer report" driving test from somebody who bought one of these check out the threads in Gunboards from about July 18. The thread goes on forever but the principal defect noted was that the "redfield" base had not been snugged down. So head space may have been checked but sure as heck nobody fired them for accuracy (like they did with the real thing).

Regards,

Jim
Jim

maybe the quality will improve as they get better at making them. as far as i can tell, they are in great demand and on backorder so even if it turns out to be a POS it should be easy enough to resell.
.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...r/100_5528.jpg
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http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...r/100_5527.jpg
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http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...r/100_5526.jpg
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http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...r/100_5525.jpg

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Originally Posted by goo

maybe the quality will improve as they get better at making them. as far as i can tell, they are in great demand and on backorder so even if it turns out to be a POS it should be easy enough to resell.
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Goo? - Have you ever considered 'Ridelin' ...:rolleyes:

First, thanks to all who replied with your sincere and carefully thought-out responses. This is the kind of thread I would expect from the Springfield Board and I received good responses from all of you.

I didn't want or need some place to spend money on a repro rifle, but I was curious about anyone who had seen one of these rifles as they will certainly be entering the market in response to the demand for 03A4 rifles. Unfortunately, they will likely be touted as originals to the less-than-discerning buyers who aren't careful in their purchases.

I was happy to see ChuckinDenver's observations about quality and fit and finish. Thank you for your taking your time to relay your thoughts on these rifles. Your observations are significant in light of your particular skills and are about what I expected, as repro rifles are often meant to be seen from a distance and not shot or handled.

Call me a coward or whatever you like, but I am deathly afraid of reclaimed receivers from Drill Rifles. I am sure that many good rifles have been made in drill pieces, but some, I fear, went that way because someone knew they were bad or problem rifles and sent them to conversion for a reason that we will never know. I look over all 03A3's I see for sale and put the drill pieces back on the shelf or the table without comment. They won't be going home with me. Call me crazy, if you like, but......

I have never been a fan of Gibbs rifles and this is simply another example of one of their continuing list of conversions that leave me wondering why I would spend my money for that? Maybe some are good, but they don't hold much interest to me. Their 45-70 Enfields may be good, but the prices rivaled buying a Marlin (almost) in the same caliber.

Well, enough of my ranting, but, seriously, thanks to all who responded. Another issue I am afraid we have not heard the last of by any means though. 'Night all!
:beerchug:

Just build your own! It's an adventure.

PD

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Originally Posted by Mike Haas

Goo? - Have you ever considered 'Ridelin' ...:rolleyes:

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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3515/...2d502c89e9.jpg

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Originally Posted by goo

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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3515/...2d502c89e9.jpg

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Goo - OK..Maybe you should get your Viagra first!! :rofl: Ridelin 2nd!

lol love the bumbadier pic

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Originally Posted by Matt Wolff

lol love the bumbadier pic

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Matt..That was priceless!! :rofl: Lends a whole new meaning to a "one liner"..

I got mine Tuesday. The scope has the windage and elevation knobs on wrong. The windage knob is on the elevation. I called Gibbs, and they said all the scopes came like that.Should have taken it back then, Gibbs claims they got a bunch of A3 receivers and turned down bolts when they Bought out Parker Hale in the 90's. The barrels are aftermarket with Gibbs 09 for a date. They do have 4 groove barrels. The stock is so so, with a gap of 1/8th inch at the back of the receiver. Every screw on mine was only hand tight. The base, the rings, the barrel bands every screw was loose.
also, both sling swivels and the stacking swivel were bent. Every time I look at it, I find something else wrong. I'm used to 03's,and milled parts, so all the stamped stuff looks cheap to me, but thats why they made the 03A3.
I,m going to refinish the stock to make it look more "origional". I think i'm going to put a real m73b1 scope on it. At least I'll have a place to display the scope. I've heard people say they used drill rifle receivers but I can't see any welding or cutting marks. The sight base says Gibbs instead of Redfield.
The bolt isn't near as smooth operating as my 03.
I had to back the eyepiece out a little over a half inch to get it to focus. the sight is clear and in focus now, but I havn't had it out to the range yet. Is it worth a grand? I'll be happy if it doesn't blow up! Oh yeah, If you turn it sideways, you can see all the way through between the stock and the butt plate. One posative thing. It,s a Remington receiver and it has mostly Remington parts. Little R's every place.
If you have a grand laying around, and you can't think of anything to do with it ,buy one. If not save your money.

Mangda

With no doubt, this things are Drill Rifle receivers. They are going off to a machine shop for weld repair. Black oxide finish will cover up the welds. They did get a pile of '03 bolts from Parker-Hale perhaps 20 years ago. None of the bolts are correct. None are true 03-A4 as Gibbs is having them made into low handle style. Take that rifle to a Gunshow and tell the dealers you lost your job and need to sell it. See if anybody will offer $450.00. That is probably their true value. Finally, I do not wish a blow-up to anyone. I think the guys who supplied those receivers to Gibbs will likely end up a party to any lawsuits from blow-ups. Good luck to all.

Well, there's one of my pet peeves: improper nomenclature.

"Furniture" is something that you add to something that is already usable to make it more usable.

A house is a usable shelter even if it's just an empty shell. "House furniture" (furnishings) make it more usable.

A horse is somewhat usable as is. Years ago "tack" was called "horse furniture." Adding a saddle and bridle makes the already usable horse more usable.

Muzzle loaders often had patch boxes and metal thimbles (to hold a ramrod) added to the stock. The phrase "stock furniture" refers to such add-ons that made the already usable stock more usable.

A rifle with a stock is usable; a rifle without a stock usually isn't. Therefore a stock isn't furniture but scopes, slings, BUI's, handgrips, lights, lasers, rangefinders, etc are furniture. A rifle is a lock and a stock and a barrel; take any one away and it isn't a rifle anymore.

So what is "beautiful walnut stock furniture?" Must be some add-on to the stock that is made of walnut and makes it "more usable." Anything else is false advertising.

they are paint finish receievers, that covers up the drill rifle welds easy enough.
bad paint jobs though.

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

With no doubt, this things are Drill Rifle receivers. They are going off to a machine shop for weld repair. Black oxide finish will cover up the welds. They did get a pile of '03 bolts from Parker-Hale perhaps 20 years ago. None of the bolts are correct. None are true 03-A4 as Gibbs is having them made into low handle style. Take that rifle to a Gunshow and tell the dealers you lost your job and need to sell it. See if anybody will offer $450.00. That is probably their true value. Finally, I do not wish a blow-up to anyone. I think the guys who supplied those receivers to Gibbs will likely end up a party to any lawsuits from blow-ups. Good luck to all.

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What is the stinking deal with the irrational hatred of former drill receivers?
They are not compromised in any way unless someone has tried to re-heat treat them because of some silly fear of a small tack weld.
Yeesh, get over it already. Gibbs wouldn't be selling them if their was a potential problem. In this day and age with our overly litigious mentality?
Yep I think they're over priced for no more pride than was put into their assembly.
BTW I have been shooting a recovered SC as my hunting rifle for years. Headspace is still perfect. Lots of fairly warm hunting loads as well as suffering through my first foray into reloading 30 years ago when I was under 20. You know how teenagers can be with the more power syndrome.

Chuck,

Bought the last copy of Guns & Ammo's latest surplus magazine Friday evening from the local newstand.

The Gibbs rifle is on the cover and the first article is about it, written by Garry James. A firearms expert that I respect, remember "Tales of The Gun". Watched every episode...more than once. He has an amazing collection and had a very good short lived magazine a while ago featuring many original antique firearms and extras.

Well the article is several pages long and tells the story of the 03A4 and only really gets to the real deal about the Gibbs rifles in the last few paragraphs.

A shoot with amazing results after dialing in the rifle. It is mentioned that Gibbs reclaimed Remington receivers etc. And the fact that Pedersoli made the four groove barrels. And the hardwood stock is walnut "Finished". Chinese mystery wood.

Guess Gibbs snafued him or maybe on the hook along with Guns & Ammo? Don't waste your ten bucks on this book...they ran outa' ideas and have several articles about obscure, to us, antique European arms...could hardly read it. Even used two large articles from Garry's old magazine.

Think the crew here could do a hundred page magazine just on surplus '03's and people would eat it up.

Chinese Junk...it's not just a ship anymore.

Death to Chinese cr%p, and the lying that goes along with it,

Lancebear

Some of you may remember the article in Guns and Ammo almost 15 years back when they featured the "Million Dollar Luger". The pistol was one of the .45 caliber Lugers sent to Springfield Armory for testing when Ordnance was looking to change to an automatic pistol from the revolver. The .45 Luger in the article, by Garry James, was proclaimed to be the only one in existence. Since this was the days of snail mail, I sent a letter to Mr. James letting him know that another .45 Luger was in the Norton Gallery in Shreveport, Louisiana, and had been for a long time. I never received a reply, so assumed that maybe the letter wasn't delivered and sent another. Same results. I guess it would have blown the cover story if they had to make it know that another .45 Luger existed. Turns out that the supposed owner of the .45 Luger in G&A wasn't the owner at all, and the same guy did time over helping scam a wealthy collector.
So much for objectivity in G&A articles.

I can't help myself every year when the Guns & Ammo surplus issue comes out. I have to buy it. I read the article on the Gibbs rifle, but reread it with "new eyes" after following this forum discussion. Omissions? Perhaps mere failure to recognize just what might be of importance to "Surplus Folks." Either way, it appears the article will not convince many on this board. That same money would buy a CMP-put-together Garand with new barrel and Boyds stock. AND...having been assembled by CMP personnel, I would not fear shooting the thing. In the end I am opting to buy the Bira Gun advertised on the back cover. Better get started loading for it. See you at the range!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../BiraGun-1.jpg

i gave my review and my opinon on the GIBBS repro A4, and was as honest as i could be with out flaming the company or the rifle.
as for recovered drill rifles??nothing wrong with them if done right, and when sold, the seller says {BUILT FROM A RECOVERED DRILL RIFLE} so the new owner shelling out cash will know exacly what he is getting.
i have recoevered a few Drill rifles, and when done and sold, i list on the sale tag, recoved drill rifle and when asked i tell them what and how it was done.
some didnt care, some did.
but i can look myself in the mirror every morning, and smile:}

AIM also advertises an 03A3:

"Original US manufactured model M1903A3 Springfield 30.06 caliber bolt action rifles. These beautiful rifles have been professionally restored and refinished. They feature original, unissued US barrels and new Military Spec. walnut stocks."

Does anyone know about these pieces?