Return Of The Townsend Whelen .35

:sos:EGADS! WILL THIS HORROR NEVER END!!!! TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY....This extremely deluded person or extremely dishonest person, on Gun Broker has a 1903 N.R.A. Sporter rebored to .35 Whelen and is claiming that this rifle was made especially for Col. Townsend Whelen. Everyone was debating this PUFFING and I went to the Colonel's book and posted the following:

In Part 3 of Whelen's book "Mister Rifleman" entitled "A Rifleman's Battery"[photo of rifle is in book !] the ONLY .35 WHELEN, Whelen mentions ever owning was a rifle originally built by James V. Howe at Frankford Arsenal in caliber .400 WHELEN IN 1922. It was a 1903 Springfield with a NIEDNER barrel and sent to Douglas in 1950 and only then, rebarrelled to .35 Whelen. The rifle itself is described as heavily engraved, with a finely checkered trap buttplate w/oil can, floorplate and triggerguard are scroll engraved with a gold TW, and with a gold Buffalo inlay on the guard , the rifle is equipped with a Howe-Whelen bolt sleeve sight with safety. It is safe therefore to say this rifle was NOT the property of COL. TOWNSEND WHELEN !!! Warmest Regards Jerry

Now believe it or not this joker says in his GB auction for the gun, that after "consulting" with experts he feels the rifle instead of being worth the prior price [I believe it was SOMEWHERE between $5K-$6K, RIDICULOUS AT THAT!] HE HAS REPRICED IT AT $16,000...YES THAT'S RIGHT ...NO, I DID'NT ADD A ZERO! I SAID...SIXTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! see for yourself at GUNBROKER AUCTION #137231931. If it was'nt so dishonest ,it would be laughable. Warmest to all Jerry :wave:

Some misguided person will buy it, sucking up the BS story as he circles the bowl. Wonder what "experts" he consulted?

Jim

as always.
buy the gun, not the story..

As my friend Krag, on another forum likes to say..."he must really like the gun - he's going to have it for a long time!" :D

I decided to send the seller an email to see if he actually had any provenance for this rifle belonging to Col. Whelen. I tried to make it as friendly as possible, and went out of my way to tell him I wasn't trying to interfere with his auction. I was curious why anyone would make such a claim with no visible evidence to back up his assertion. This is the reply that I received.

#5 is off the wall. I made no threats whatsoever, veiled or not. His statement shows a complete ignorance of civil law anyway.:super:

Good luck to any buyer that falls for #4, ie. "I make a claim and it is up to you to prove me wrong".:bow:

The four liitle stars weren't stars in the email I received.:yikes:

Jim:cool:

Reply:
************************************************** *
Bookman1@aol.com
Friday, August 14, 2009 6:26 PM
Re: Question regarding GunBroker.com Item 137231931

Thanks for your comments:
1. You assume the Col only had one 35 Whelen, can you back that up?
2. The stepfather of the collector I bought the rifle from was a barrel maker at Springfield Arsenal when the rifle was made.
3. The collector was one of the foremost collectors in NY State as you would see if you note the other 2 03s I have listed that came from his collection.
4. The buyer, should there be one, will receive a complete COA from me along with a 100% refund guarantee if he can supply an affidavit from a recognized authority on 03s stating and supporting that the rifle is not as represented.
5. I must say, I take great exception to your veiled threat of invoking some interstate fraud laws. You should be aware that threats such as that represent slander and are equally subject to liability on your part for making such unsupported statements.

Finally, I realize that 99% of GunBroker members don't know **** about 03s or any historic guns for that matter. I doubt any of them has published 27 books on historic firearms and edged weapons, as I have or have a library 1/10th the size of mine.

In case you missed it, I have raised the price WAY up on the rifle to discourage fools from bothering me about it.

You have a wonderful day as the self appointed brother's keeper of Gunbroker.com
********************************************

"...27 books on historic firearms and edged weapons, as I have..."? I'd be curious to know who he is (or says he is).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

"...27 books on historic firearms and edged weapons, as I have..."? I'd be curious to know who he is (or says he is).

---

He isn't worth the effort. Just avoid him.:thdown:

Jim:cool:

This seller is very smart. He knows full well he merely need one fool. Have no fear he will find that fool.

A I like to say, he's a member of the IOTOS Club: "It Only Takes One Sucker".

:D

It is certainly an interesting way of doing business that you have to prove the rifle was not owned by Col. Whelen to get a refund!!

Using the same philosophy, I would like to offer a M1917 Eddystone, used by Alvin York in WWI for $500,000. Of course, if you can prove that he didn't use it, you can get your money back!!

If you "buy" that I can also supply Sam Woodfill's M1903 and Audie Murphy's M1 carbine for similar terms!!

:rofl:

$60.00 would likely proove him wrong, Freedom of imformation act, and a letter to Redstone would get the sales history of that rifle.
but my take..
if you truly dont want to sell a rifle, why would you advertise it, and when a possible buyer asks for proof of your statements of the said rifle being genuine, the only reason said rifle is valued at such a large ammount, is its history, wouldnt you want to provide that proof??
or is he just feeding his own ego, so to speak..
i run into those same type of collector dealer types all the time.
when they die, the exwife sells said ultra rare collection for pennies on the dollar, as she usually hated those &^% guns anyway.
one said dealer collector had a Remington 760 owned by Sammy davis JR, he had some proof, from the Estate.
and had a price of 6500.00 on the rifle, i was eyeballing the rifle, and the document with my hands behind my back, dealer says, impresssive huh??
well, thats one word that fits for sure.
thats all i said, and looked at the rest of his collection, seemed everything was owned by someone famous, had some sort of story line or other lot of BS that went with it.
a hunting knife owned by Teddy Ros, ect...
i noticed the only thing selling off his display was vintage pictures, and modern made arrow heads being humped off as found.
at 10.00 a head.

Nick ferris asked me a couple years ago, if i would come over and give him a rough value of his collection.
he does have some neet rifles, and a couple nice pistols.
so my responce was.
Nick as much as i care about you and value your friendship, but your guns will be worth a lot more after your gone, if you document, and log your rifles in a book, sign the book, date it and a small story of who you got the rifle from, and what it meens in your collection, or like his Marine rifle, no serialed Reminton 03,s the story he knows via research.
i really think he is clueless to how people view him and some of the books he and Mr Beard have put out.
much like Brophys estate, or anyone who has wrote a book on a collectable rifle.
such as 1903 SA from the Brophy estate..ect. could be a plain jane 800.00 rifle, but since it came from his collection, it would likely fetch more then 1800.00
he later that day, come over to my table and thanked me for my candid responce, and my honesty.
i told him, i trully hope the value of his collection stays low for many years, as i enjoy seeing him, and sharing the BS about guns.
not many guys iv known over the years ask me to loan them a part so they can take pictures of it, with ill bring it back next time i see you.

It’s simple, you either have proof of ownership (provenance) or you don’t there is no gray area. Townsend Whelen was the most prolific firearm writer in history and he wrote and published thousands of articles. Someone needs to do an article on the history of the 35 Whelen ;-). As a matter of fact Townsend Whelen’s grandson is busy working on a bibliography of his writings.
This was Whelen’s 1903 made by Wundhammer and I can prove it!
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/203063-1.jpg

I'll ask the owner of this rifle to tell you about it.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/203012-1.jpg

Art, plain and simple.. stunning rifle.

Hey Jim,

Not the kinda' letter I'd be writin' to a Combat Marine with fightin' experience from the RVN and maybe more dangerous battle experience earned in Louisiana and Texas:).

Sure you were polite, try as you might...ya' can't change the stripes on a know it all. Bet he has gotten a few letters like yours.

Maybe he meant paragraphs when he wrote 27 "Books".

Death to ignorance and stupidity,

Robert

Robert:
I have no idea what PO'ed him. I was very polite and courteous, or so I thought. I wrote him off pretty quickly when I saw his response. I never even hinted that the rifle wasn't what he said it was. Go figure.

Michael:
Incredible rifles, and I have no doubt they are exactly what you say they are. I never get tired of looking at the work of master craftsmen. No matter how I try, I can't come close.

Chuck:
I agree with what you said about the value of Ferris's rifles. I would pay a premium just because he once owned it.

Jim

Hey Jim,

You are a smart one, you know exactly what lit his fuse even though you were polite...he's been questioned by experts that have called him on concrete provenance several times. Probably paid too much for the rifle and is trying to pass off the loss and make a profit on his mistake.

Well...any man who has sixteen grand of gun money to spend will certainly have done his homework. That $500.00 rifle will never sell. Sure he paid a lot more for it. Bought the story not the rifle, and he is caught and bitter.

Think it is a fine thing that '03 experts here take the time and risk to help clear the water in the M1903 collecting world with no reward. Rookie collectors will continue to take their lumps without homework or making friends and asking questions. Nothin' you can do about that but it's nice that ya' try to help.

Robert

Jim, The second rifle belongs to a friend and he must be off the computer or he would have responded. The rifle is Townsend Whelen's rifle in caliber .35-Whelen. Was originally a .400-Whelen and he had it re-barreled circa 1950 to .35-Whelen.

It is a gorgeous rifle. Simple elegance.
Jim

my take on emails.
if your nice, and write it nice, and the reader is a Ahole. he will read it as he wrote it, and think YOUR the Ahole..
had you asked him face to face, i doubt he would have responded the same way.
makes since dont it?

Could be, but I doubt it.

Jim

Well let's start with the basics.
1. Chuck in Denver has never met me nor seen my Hoffer as I have never had it for sale at any gunshow. As for his "expert opinion" I'm sure he can tell us how much more he knows than J.C. Harrison about Hoffers.
2. Any fool who thinks SRS has correct data on every 03 is wrong. Can anyone really suggest that andy government agency (the aresenals) had complete accurate records on every gun that went through?
3. The former owner of the 35 Whelen had a step-father who was a barrel maker at Springfield. Any of you have that kind of connection?
4. When a seller offers a COA and a 100% purchase price refund given an affidavit from a recognized 03 expert saying it is wrong, I find it hard to be so paranoid.
5. I raised the price to shut up the "experts" who think they know something about 03s' and SA production.
6. Col Whelen owned a lot more rifles than pictured (with all the photos printed backwards) (any of you experts catch that?) in Mr. Rifleman.
7. As for the 27 books published.... well DUH, you could look at my other auctions and you would see the ones that are still in print all for sale there.
8. Outside of Petrov (whose writeup on the myth of the 400 Whelen is featured in the latest book I published), the rest of you sound like you're repeating the mantra's put out by other "experts".
9. Rick, you might want to catch up with facts. York's family has stated in print that he used an 03'. Or are they liars too? Proving the 35 is not right should be a piece of cake for a published expert on 03s' such as yourself.
10. You bet I have an attitude. It is confined to wannabes who waste the time of those of us who have been serious 03 collectors for decades, in my case five.
It's easy to crap on someone else'd stuff when you have nothing but hot air to offer in support.
You all have a wonderful, smug day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr humble

Well let's start with the basics.
1. Chuck in Denver has never met me nor seen my Hoffer as I have never had it for sale at any gunshow. As for his "expert opinion" I'm sure he can tell us how much more he knows than J.C. Harrison about Hoffers.
2. Any fool who thinks SRS has correct data on every 03 is wrong. Can anyone really suggest that andy government agency (the aresenals) had complete accurate records on every gun that went through?
3. The former owner of the 35 Whelen had a step-father who was a barrel maker at Springfield. Any of you have that kind of connection?
4. When a seller offers a COA and a 100% purchase price refund given an affidavit from a recognized 03 expert saying it is wrong, I find it hard to be so paranoid.
5. I raised the price to shut up the "experts" who think they know something about 03s' and SA production.
6. Col Whelen owned a lot more rifles than pictured (with all the photos printed backwards) (any of you experts catch that?) in Mr. Rifleman.
7. As for the 27 books published.... well DUH, you could look at my other auctions and you would see the ones that are still in print all for sale there.
8. Outside of Petrov (whose writeup on the myth of the 400 Whelen is featured in the latest book I published), the rest of you sound like you're repeating the mantra's put out by other "experts".
9. Rick, you might want to catch up with facts. York's family has stated in print that he used an 03'. Or are they liars too? Proving the 35 is not right should be a piece of cake for a published expert on 03s' such as yourself.
10. You bet I have an attitude. It is confined to wannabes who waste the time of those of us who have been serious 03 collectors for decades, in my case five.
It's easy to crap on someone else'd stuff when you have nothing but hot air to offer in support.
You all have a wonderful, smug day.

---

WOW!! - One of you guys walked past the "Junkyard" and kicked the gate. Now the Guarddog has his backhair up and is frothing and barking!! :yikes::yikes:

This is like watching Leave It To Beaver reruns. Same thing with same guy on the cast bullet forum ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Ten years back I knew a dealer at the Great Western Show who had a mint pre-war S&W M&P .38 Special revolver for sale. He wanted real money for it and had no takers. He eventually sold it to a big-time dealer in Huntington Beach,CA. About three months later my buddy sees that same revolver for huge money at a high-end gunshow. It now had a superb provenance, as being the property of a well known US Army WWII General and had a letter from said General's wife. In the box were WWII ribbons and a short bio of the General. The gun was sold by the end of the day. Dealers tells me it is easier to fake up paperwork then fake up a gun. "Let the buyer beware".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr humble

Well let's start with the basics.
1. Chuck in Denver has never met me nor seen my Hoffer as I have never had it for sale at any gunshow. As for his "expert opinion" I'm sure he can tell us how much more he knows than J.C. Harrison about Hoffers.
2. Any fool who thinks SRS has correct data on every 03 is wrong. Can anyone really suggest that andy government agency (the aresenals) had complete accurate records on every gun that went through?
3. The former owner of the 35 Whelen had a step-father who was a barrel maker at Springfield. Any of you have that kind of connection?
4. When a seller offers a COA and a 100% purchase price refund given an affidavit from a recognized 03 expert saying it is wrong, I find it hard to be so paranoid.
5. I raised the price to shut up the "experts" who think they know something about 03s' and SA production.
6. Col Whelen owned a lot more rifles than pictured (with all the photos printed backwards) (any of you experts catch that?) in Mr. Rifleman.
7. As for the 27 books published.... well DUH, you could look at my other auctions and you would see the ones that are still in print all for sale there.
8. Outside of Petrov (whose writeup on the myth of the 400 Whelen is featured in the latest book I published), the rest of you sound like you're repeating the mantra's put out by other "experts".
9. Rick, you might want to catch up with facts. York's family has stated in print that he used an 03'. Or are they liars too? Proving the 35 is not right should be a piece of cake for a published expert on 03s' such as yourself.
10. You bet I have an attitude. It is confined to wannabes who waste the time of those of us who have been serious 03 collectors for decades, in my case five.
It's easy to crap on someone else'd stuff when you have nothing but hot air to offer in support.
You all have a wonderful, smug day.

---

Since it was my post that reignited this issue I feel I should take my share of the heat. Here is the way I see it:
1.After you sort through through all the puffing above, there is not one actual piece of REAL provenance to prove the TW ownership of this rifle. [e.g. A photo of TW with the rifle or a mention of the rifle and the SA barrel maker and his connection to TW in his writing.] Absolutely nothing identifiable or concrete to prove this rifle ever belonged to TW! The only thing we have is your word and your C.O.A. If the barrel maker was the key to the provenance, why is there no statement from him, so that he can be identified as a SA employee? Saying something does not make it so, just because you once wrote a book(s). You also purchased it from the alledged step-son and not the barrel maker, another layer away from verifiable information.

2. I myself would question just what 03 expert's word you would accept to obtain a refund,when it is obviously clear to me, that you don't believe anyone to have greater knowledge than you on this topic or any, for that matter. We are talking about thousands of dollars,that once you get it, you will be the final arbiter of whether or not someone has proven to your satisfaction if you should have to give back the money on a rifle ,now proven to be a fraud! That's like the fox guarding the chicken coop!

3.Your assertion that you raised the price up to $16,000 to "shut up the experts" is what we in the 25th. I.D. in the R.V.N. called " Ben Tre Logic" or "We had to destroy the village. in order to save it". I believe instead, you became a practitioner of "the big lie". Once it became known among the auction regulars about the "Questionable N.R.A. / TW Rifle on AA" you knew your potential market would have to be the uninformed. So you thought $16,000 would make it seem more authentic to them.

4.I don't know Rick or Chuck personally,nor have I done business with them. That being said I read their posts and I like them! I believe if we ever met, I would like them in person as well. They seem to be like my friends here at home, that I shoot and hunt with and yes occasionally drink a beer or two with. The main reason I like them though, is they take their time, day in and day out to help answer question for guys with problems with their 03's! I mean a lot of time, more time than I have to give, even if I had the knowledge. I like Michael Petrov don't even collect military 03's, but instead collect pre-war 03 custom sporter's. However I still read and learn everyday from these guys and I've never met them. I grew up in a gunstore and I am on my 48th. year working on these things. So don't be so quick to ridicule these guys on this blog, for our failure to have 27 books published [after looking at your auction it appears you may own a printing house and just maybe, published 27 books,not authored 27 books!] after all, WE WERE SMART ENOUGH TO CATCH ON TO THE TW SCAM YOU'RE RUNNING. THEREFORE...

I'VE COME TO REALIZE ...IT'S NOT YOUR ATTITUDE THAT'S THE PROBLEM...IT REALLY IS YOU!

Well spoken, Alvin. Particularly Item #4, in which sentiment I would like to join you. Chuck and Rick, we have your six covered.

"3. The former owner of the 35 Whelen had a step-father who was a barrel maker at Springfield. Any of you have that kind of connection?" (The barrels at Springfield were made in very numerous steps by an equal number of employees. Exactly which step did this "barrel maker" perform? Crowning?)

I have a cousin who has a girl friend whose neighbor down the street once delivered a pizza to Chuck Norris. Does that count?

Mr. Humble: Can you honestly not see our problem with your ad and assertions about this rifle? Surely your sole basis for claiming this rifle to have once been owned by CTW is not based on a statement by some unknown "barrel maker" from the distant past? Would you buy a rifle from one of us for a veery stiff price on that same basis? I am not trying to upset you, I am just curious about the provenance of the rifle.

Jim
(Alvin #3)

I fully realize that Alvin York may have used a M1903. The point I was trying to make (and yes, in a sarcastic way, I admit!!) is that most rare items for sale are not stated so that you have to prove the item is not authentic. Mr. Humble may be as right as rain (and yes, I have no way of proving him right or wrong) but in the end, I wouldn't pay $16,000 for something without more information. Others maybe would. If he can get $16,000 for the rifle, more power to him.

And by the way, thanks, Jim and Alvin!! You guys are great!

In case it is not obvious... the 16K pricetag is a joke just to shut up the wannabes. I notice that where, when and who facts about your boy turning down my Hoffer at some mythical gunshow are failing to appear.... hmm, who is bsing whom? Being sarcastic may be fun but only shows you have no concrete facts to back up all you loud mouthed babble. You want an expert I'll accept for a refund? Try Canfield or Harrison. Finally I never said I wrote the books (only one) but rather that I published them. With the exception of Mike, I can't recall seeing any of your titles at any of the book shows????
So put up or shut up. It takes a big set of balls to hide behind a keyboard and crap on someone else with no facts just uninformed opinions.
What gun show was that again?. LMFAO.

"Put up or shut up?" OK, exactly what Gunshow will this "keeper" be shown at??? I will make an effort to be there. Could you have it at the CMP Western Games? This is a very nice '03 Sporter and worth fair money. Why do you find in necessary to put up a bogus story to sell this rifle? It stands on its own merits. What provenance?? Again: What Gunshow and when???

Gentleman,

I think this thread has gone long enough. I suggest we drop this discussion. Mr. Humble can try to sell his rifle and we can discuss other matters. I think it is turning ugly and I think we're getting away from the purpose of this forum.

I thank all members for their very frank comments.

RtL

Don't you have to have really special "connections" to get in touch with J C Harrison these days? I'm thinking that it is REALLY difficult to get in touch with him anymore................................

Rick:

I didn't see your post directly above my previous post. That is probably the best advice I have seen in a while.......................

Rick, could not agree more. Sorry I forgot Harrison had passed. Also have to take Canfield off the list as he was duped a few years ago by a faked Rod Bayonet rifle. Wonder if any of the "experts" here know how the fraud was uncovered? (I do) I would still be curious to know what gun show and where my Hoffer was seen for sale and I was so nice to this guy. In plain language, he is a liar. Thanks, Mr. H.

Mr. Humble,

I could have respected you more if you just let it go - or stopped with the first couple of sentences.

I am CLOSING this thread to further posts.

RtL