I didn't think that modifying serial numbers was legal. :dunno: Take a look.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=138241033
-Jeff L
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I didn't think that modifying serial numbers was legal. :dunno: Take a look.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=138241033
-Jeff L
I don't see ANYTHING on that receiver to have been "relocated."
The serial number only mattered after 1968. Before then it was common for a custom gunmaker to remove all markings from a 1903 including the serial number. Some firms relocated the number to the bottom of the action or barrel where it would be covered by wood.
Actually the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 covered obliterated or altered serial numbers. It was largely ignored at the time unless a firearm with an obliterated serial number was used in a crime.
The Federal Firearms Act[17] became law with the approval of President Roosevelt on June 30th, 1938. It went into effect on July 30th with the purpose of regulating interstate commerce in firearms and consequently curbing the possession of such weapons by criminals. The, Act provides for the licensing of all manufacturers and dealers in the interstate commerce of firearms. Criminals are banned from either receiving or sending firearms in interstate or foreign com- [Page 439] merce. Stolen firearms and those with obliterated serial numbers are barred from such commerce. The Act has nine sections but for purposes of clarity and brevity shall be treated under three divisions: definitions, prohibitions., and administration.
Section 902i forbids the shipping, transporting, or knowingly receiving, in interstate or foreign commerce, of any firearm from which the manufacturer's serial number has been removed, obliterated or altered, "and the possession of any such firearm shall be presumptive evidence that such firearm was transported, shipped, or received, as the case may be, by the possessor in violation of this Act."[30] It is clear that the presumption applies only to the instant subdivision for only under this section is there any ban against such firearm.
someplace, it says, a gunsmith may remove the serial number and replace it, as long as its not changed, for repair, or refinish.
unless something has changed.
chuck,
Does that mean it has to go back in the same place or can it be "relocated" per said rifle?
thanks
-Jeff L
Going by what I remember from looking into this in the past, replacement SN's have to go in a conspicuous location where it isn't easily removed, be at least .003" deep and at least 1/16" tall.
Even a stolen gun that has had its SN removed can have it replaced or a new one assigned by the ATF. The picture below (found on SigForum) is of a recovered P220 (stolen from a gun store) that had an ATF assigned SN applied. Note the "ATF" prefix to the number.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/p220_9-1.jpg
Just out of curiosity, how does Century International's penchant for stamping entirely new s/ns on imported wepons figure into this?
Donzi
You can re-stamp, (not engrave!), the serial number as chuck stated, but it MUST be in a different place. Even if you can't see the original, it can be brought back up using certain chemicals and techniques. I've done it many times. (re-stamp during re-finishing, not bring up old numbers)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff L
Once, when an old pistol with no number was present, I contacted the local ATF office for guidance. Their reply was "just put a number on it." "what number" I asked? "It doesn't matter, as long as it has a number." It was not a stolen gun like the one VI shooter showed.
I have also refused to work on firearms where the serial number was purposely defaced in an attempt to decieve or mis-lead. :runaway: THAT is definitely a no-no with ATF. :nono:
FWIW,
Emri
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donzi
Quite a few of those guns have numbers hard to read, illegible, possibly duplicate, or non-existant. When they import a batch of guns, they assign serial number blocks for them and all the guns are marked with a new number and the importer mark. It is probably easier to keep up with acquisition and disposition with new numbers.
FWIW,
Emri
engraving vs stamping.
most mondern weapons built withen the last 5 years are lazer engraved, not roll stamped.
Wather, Smith@ Wesson, Remingtons to name a few,
the pistol shown above has both numbers engraved, not stamped.
the engraving proccess i use will look no different then a roll stamp, i can also set it to look lazer etched as well.
even with a jewlers lense you cant tell them apart.
i can set style, depth, ect.
if i can scan it, it can be dulplicated.
example,
my Springfield 1911 WW1 pistol, had been sanded and ground on by some yahoo,
serial was visable, but washed. USP markings long gone.
after straightening out the pistol and fixing the rounded edges and washed out holes, i restored the markings including the serial, and the SA bomb on the left side.
they came out perfect.
I'll bet that agent's supervisor would have given a different answer. Regs require the number to be unique. Manufacturers register blocks of SN's with the ATF these days to ensure lack of duplicates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emri
When I've called the ATF for advice, if the agent gives me an answer I think is wrong, I ask him to verify it with his super (or an agent too senior to get stuck on phone duty). The answer usually changes.
Example: I acquired from an estate a Rem 870 with spare barrels that included a riot barrel with a soldered-on extension that brought it up to the legal minimum of 18". I had read that hard soldering an extension on a too-short shotgun barrel could return it to legal status while a soft solder extension wouldn't. So I called the ATF and described my acquisition and asked my question. The junior agent who answered the phone said that once a barrel was cut too short nothing could make it legal again. I had him check with his super and he then confirmed that the hard soldering was a legal way to restore a short barrel (much to his stated surprise).
[QUOTE=Emri;77970]"Quite a few of those guns have numbers hard to read, illegible, possibly duplicate, or non-existant. When they import a batch of guns, they assign serial number blocks for them and all the guns are marked with a new number and the importer mark. It is probably easier to keep up with acquisition and disposition with new numbers."
I'm sure that new s/ns make it "easier" f/the importer, and the s/n problems may be true f/some firearms, but mine, a very nice 1943 Long Branch(Canadian) Enfield MK4 No.1*, has a perfectly good original s/n, 44L6367, cleanly and legibly stamped on the left side of the butt socket. It just seems pointless(also, kinda dumb) to me that this rifle will forever be identified, @ least for US gov't.purposes, by a fictional s/n. JMHO, of course.
Donzi
yup.
what was told to me, and just a week ago,
barrels to short to be legal.
under 16 for rifle, and under 18 for shotgun, can have a exention permentantly attached to the correct legal length, welded, and or hard solder.
they never did figure out of a rifle shotgun combo can be 16" like the book they sent me said, so ill be safe and make them 18 1/2 long.
however, and ecception.
if a shotgun was made, and sold by the manufacture as a AOW {any other weapon} and the serial is listed as such, AE military , police ect, it would always be a AOW weapon and need the tax tranfer as well, no matter what barrel it had attached. Remington, Winchester, and Mossberg all offer an AOW shotgun.
that doesnt make any since.
like the M1 and M2 carbine ruling..makes no since at all,
if you change the 2 to a 1 and the serial number isnt in the group the ATF has listed as a M2, then its legal...
several M1 carbines were made sans the 1 or 2 and left blank, so they could be stamped 1 for semi or 2 for full auto.
a guy could in therory remove said 2, and stamp a 1 in its place and the rifle would be legal.
not that i would ever think of doing such a thing..
the additude of the law is once a machine gun always a machinegun..no matter what..
so now, i see they have semi auto Sten tubes available, i was wondering how they fall on this..
it just gets more confusing.
As far as "Once a machine gun...." That only goes for the receiver. The Sten tube is the receiver, all the AK kits are former MG's without receivers. In WA state, mere possession of a part specifically for a MG only is a violation.
Also keep in mind that ATF's interest in serial numbers is for accountability and traceing purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donzi
If an imported firearm is stamped with the importers name they know where to go to find the records of ditribution.
If the importer has stamped a unique number then further tracing to wholesaler, retailer and consumer is simplified.
This is epecially true where the original markings may be in some foreign alphabet.
Regards,
Jim
Hey Guys: I hate to admit this and I'm hoping you can forgive me but yes...it's true 32 years ago I, in a moment of blind stupidity graduated from an unnamed liberal Ivy League Law School and passed the Bar. So my secrets out... I'm an Attorney, egads it hurts to evens say it! I hope you can all find it in your hearts to forgive me this one stupid, foolish mistake, when I struck out at the world in anger. That being said, several years ago I represented a middle aged gentleman who still delighted in making, what we in Georgia refer to as " NON-TAX PAID LIQUOR," you may refer to it as Moonshine. He could no longer own guns as a convicted felon and he offered me a small gun collection as payment. It really wasn't very much but I had to go the local ATF office to pick it up. While there I had a cup of coffee with the ATF agent and he told me something I found very interesting. He said regs like you are speaking about re: serial numbers etc. are of no interests to the everyday agent! He stated if you went in and turned yourself in for having a shotgun with too short a barrel, all they would do is take the shotgun, give you a receipt and tell you to go home pending notification that would never come. His statement was, the only time people got charged with these "chicken****" code sections, were when they were piling on all kinds of other serious Federal charges such as Bank Robbery, Kidnapping, etc. He had been with the ATF for 24 years and never investigated the kinds of cases we have been discussing, most of his firearms cases were importation of explosives, hand grenades, minutemen type stuff. In fact he told me he had never made a case on a gunsmith, and only a few on dealers and they were on massive ammo sales from outside the country with no import permit. So I came away from there thinking these guys were way to busy to run around with a tape measure checking barrel lengths, unless they were there because of the explosion in your Meth Lab. JMOFWIW :beerchug: Warmest Regards Jerry