I finally found a nice Rock-Ola!!!

I went to a local gun show Saturday and my son spotted this Rock-Ola M1 carbine at my favorite local dealer's table.

It was on consignment from a guy who is selling his collection a little at a time. It has NO import marks, it is all Rock-Ola parts except for the bolt (inland). It is in the correct condition, it has the push-button safety (WWII style), no bayonet lug type 2 barrel band, and has the adjustable (and correct) sight since it was manufactured in the LAST month of Rock-Ola carbine production!

The serial number is 62104XX, which puts it as manufactured in May, 1944, when the last 9913 carbines were built by Rock-Ola (this number is within that group!).

It even has a correct late WWII sling in olive drab, with an oiler made by IBM.

It went out the door with me for EXACTLY 8 bills (no S/T, since it was consignment and the dealer never had to enter it in his bound book before selling it to me). (BTW, Gunbroker just sold a Rock-Ola with a ring (or bulge) inside the barrel and NOT as nice as this one, (IMHO - and many on the Carbine forums feel that there is faked parts on it, BTW) for $3728!!! - See http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=137234487)

My son and I took it to the range on Sunday and it shot very well except the sights shoot a bit high @ 50 or 100 yards even with the rear sight adjusted as low as it will go - but a little "Kentucky windage" showed that it could group all shots in the black!

Here is a Photo-Bucket slide show of it (just click the image below and enjoy the show!):

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...neright2-1.jpg

According to Bruce Canfield, the Rock-Ola carbines comprised only 3.7% of all carbines Mf'd during WWII - See: Bruce Canfield Rock-Ola article

Ron :D

Ron,
OOOOHHHH,
A last block RMC !!
Looks very nice. Has that....been together for a long time look to it. I wonder if during it's stay at RIA if that's when the bolt may have been swapped? Could have also been stuck in there years ago when someone threw a extractor or plunger. You know...a back up bolt.
Sure happy for you and your son. Shooting high is normal at that range.
Noticed it's a I cut stock with the wood cut down to low. Maybe done at RIA (?) That circled P isn't a factory proof it's a inspection P.
Oiler is International Silver.
Congrats to you and your son.....very, very nice carbine.
We appreciate you taking the time to share it with us.

Enjoy!

Regards
Charlie-painter777

P.S. Is that Type II band unmarked or does it have a light ( / ) mark?

try and find the correct stock for it now.

Ron,
Here's a link to that $3700+ RMC on GB.
You'll see we had a rather lengthy discussion about it.
Rock-Ola on GB - Military Surplus Collectors Forums
I wouldn't take 4 of the ones like this GB one to what you've found.
Good Hunting!!

Charlie-painter777

FTD,
How you coming on your twins?

Charlie

Soon as you finish my Wood, I'm done....

That could be taken the wrong way !!

LMAO

Charlie

Yes, I know....just saw it..well everyone can have a good laugh...

Is that a large Quality Hardware CC on the stock?

Scott.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by old glory

try and find the correct stock for it now.

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The "RMC" shows that it IS a correct Rock-Ola stock.

"The carbine stocks made by Rock-Ola were stamped
“RMC” (Rock-Ola Manufacturing Corp.) in the sling
recess."
-See referenced article by Bruce Canfield, above.

Ron

RMC also made stocks marked QRMC for Quality HMC. Along with RMC B marked stocks for IBM. Along with some other early transfer stock to Inland.

Charlie

Ron, what old glory means is that it is a I-cut Rock-ola stock modified to low wood which is to early for your serial #.
The faint Cross cannons is hard to see, it could be a Quality Hardware or Inland. Is there a faint RMC in a box to the right of the cross cannons?
It is a very nice carbine.

Scott

that serial range should have oval cut low wood. RMC made stocks for several makers of carbines. the proper markings on the side of the stock will be the crossed cannons and RMC in a box for that gun.

The crossed cannons is almost gone (my son could see it there, and I couldn't until I did the mineral oil trick to bring it out) - It was tricky to get it as good as I did with the camera set to 'Super Macro'. If there was an RMC next to it, I think it was probably obliterated by the RIA/EB mark. They must have almost sanded it away somewhere during it's career.

There is, however, a distinct "RMC" in the sling well, and I have a pretty clear picture of that.

The handguard also has a clear enough "RMC" (as pictured).

To ScottR -

"it is a I-cut Rock-ola stock modified to low wood which is to early for your serial #."

Or maybe the I-cut was the modification to an already low wood stock? (I don't know, but might that be another possibility?)

RonJon

...This is scanned from Pg. 256 of Bruce Canfield's "Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and The M1 Carbine". I think it explains the apparent anomaly you mentioned, but that the stock is probably original after all:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

And here is evidence that this stock was originally high wood, but the milling marks show that it was reworked (by RIA?) to low wood:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF0050-1.jpg

RonJon

Although the stock was made by Rock-Ola it was used by Quality Hardware. That’s why it has the early QHMC acceptance stamp next to the oiler slot as ScottR pointed out. So it is not the correct stock for a Rock-Ola carbine. The stock may have been on the carbine when it went through RIA for rebuild or it could have been matched up later by someone thinking since it was a Rock-Ola made stock it would be correct for a Rock-Ola carbine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrianQ

Although the stock was made by Rock-Ola it was used by Quality Hardware. That’s why it has the early QHMC acceptance stamp next to the oiler slot as ScottR pointed out. So it is not the correct stock for a Rock-Ola carbine. The stock may have been on the carbine when it went through RIA for rebuild or it could have been matched up later by someone thinking since it was a Rock-Ola made stock it would be correct for a Rock-Ola carbine.

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Where do you see the "Q" in this picture (or any of my pictures, above) before the "RMC" (not "HMC', as you stated)?:confused:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...RMCStock-1.jpg

RonJon

Don't need to see a Q anywhere. Matter of fact most QHMC stocks are marked RMC in the sling well. The acceptance stamp on the right side tells which company had the stock when the carbine in it was accepted by the Ordnance Department inspectors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrianQ

Don't need to see a Q anywhere. Matter of fact most QHMC stocks are marked RMC in the sling well. The acceptance stamp on the right side tells which company had the stock when the carbine in it was accepted by the Ordnance Department inspectors.

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And what does the acceptance stamp that you see in my pictures say?

The only markings on the right side of the stock that I can make out are the "RIA/EB" (which probably was put right over the original "RMC" and obliterated it when the stock was modified to low wood), and what's left of the crossed cannons. I don't see any "Q"s or Quality Hardware, or any company designated anywhere. ("RIA" was Rock Island Arsenal, where the work was done, NOT the manufacturer, and the "EB" stood for Elmer Bjerke, who was in command of the arsenal).

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

So please tell me what you are talking about exactly.

BTW, Here (Also from Canfield's book) is what the marking in the sling well looks like if the stock was made by Rock-Ola for Quality Hardware:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

RonJon

The shape of the acceptance stamp, which is often called the ordnance wheel, is different for each carbine manufacturer. Rock-Ola used a very distinctive style ordnance wheel that is vastly different than any other manufacturer.

Suggest you take a look at the “Stock and Handguard” paragraphs in Canfield’s book on page 260. BTW Canfields book barely dimples on the surface of the M1 Carbine and a lot of the info is incorrect and misleading.

Ron, this is the acceptance stamp on Quality to compare with, hope that helps.....Frank

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03/QHMC3-1.jpg

BrianQ,

You wrote: "The shape of the acceptance stamp, which is often called the ordnance wheel, is different for each carbine manufacturer. Rock-Ola used a very distinctive style ordnance wheel that is vastly different than any other manufacturer."

They are both the same size Ordnance Wheels (7/16"). And if you can tell from my pictures which one of these it matches (from Pg. 315 of Ruth's "War Baby") then you have better vision than I (but I'm leaning toward the Rock-Ola one since the back end of the cannon @ about 4 o'clock looks to me to be squared off as it is in the Rock-Ola diagram in Ruth's book).


https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

Unless you can come up with better "proof" than you have provided, I'm going to go with the FACT that my stock is an original Rock-Ola, because I have provided you with documentation on EVERY POINT of this debate and you have only given your verbal opinions.

With all due respect, I'm getting fatigued with this discussion so I'm now calling for it to be closed.

frankderrico,

Thanks for your picture. Yours matches the QH diagram in the above scan from Ruth's book, "War Baby".

RonJon

Up to 12" high at 100 was within spec. By the way, that carbine was a great buy!

Ron, we are trying to provide you with information, some of which is not in the books. I hope you are hear to learn. The cross cannons in Franks picture and the one in the book is not the early Quality Hardware cross cannons that I spoke of. Look at your stock and tell me if the CC is upright(cannons are facing up). Or is the CC horizontal(cannons are facing forward towards the front of the rifle. How far away is the CC from the oiler cut out?

Scott

The portion at four o'clock would be the top of the left cannon and is squared off on All acceptance stamps. Rock-Ola stamps are turned 90 degrees clock wise from most other acceptance stamps. Something neither one of the books you are using shows.

Here is a Rock-Ola pattern acceptance stamp oriented properly with the oiler slot to the viewers left.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/09/RMC-1.jpg

You might want to lean back the other way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottR

Ron, we are trying to provide you with information, some of which is not in the books. I hope you are hear [sp=here] to learn. The cross cannons in Franks picture and the one in the book is not the early Quality Hardware cross cannons that I spoke of. Look at your stock and tell me if the CC is upright(cannons are facing up). Or is the CC horizontal(cannons are facing forward towards the front of the rifle. How far away is the CC from the oiler cut out?

Scott

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From page 13 of J.C. Harrison's book, it looks like #14:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ab7911cp-1.jpg

...and the center of the ordnance wheel is 9.5 cm (about 3 3/4") forward of the oiler slot.

Unfortunately there are many mistakes in Harrison's book. Number 14 has long been recognized as an error and is not found on legitimate RMC stocks. It's pattern has been duplicated by the fakers as well. The vertical RMC cartouche above posted by Brian Q, would be correct. RMC made many stocks for different prime contractors. They were known for their stock making expertise. I have an early QHMC with RMC in the sling well and the larger crossed cannon acceptance stamp on the right side next to the I-Cut.

dbarn is right on about Harrison having many errors. But it is still a reference so it was added long ago to my library. Maybe whoever is making the stamps found it easier to use a mylar template, who knows.

What we do know is BrianQ posted the correct marking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dbarn

Unfortunately there are many mistakes in Harrison's book. Number 14 has long been recognized as an error and is not found on legitimate RMC stocks. It's pattern has been duplicated by the fakers as well. The vertical RMC cartouche above posted by Brian Q, would be correct. RMC made many stocks for different prime contractors. They were known for their stock making expertise. I have an early QHMC with RMC in the sling well and the larger crossed cannon acceptance stamp on the right side next to the I-Cut.

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So I guess Larry L. Ruth's "War Baby" is incorrect as well?:

This is from Pg. 400 of "War Baby" where he is documenting the Rock-Ola stock group. The first and second examples each talk about the Stock, Type A, Variation 1. This variation had the 'I'-shaped oiler aperture (same as I have), However, the first example tells of the CC logo plus 'RMC' framed vertically in top of square (as BrianQ's example shows); but the second example varies only in leaving out the "vertically" orientation that was in the first example.

The first example ranges from start of production through ~ half of the 1st S/N block; and the second example was used from ~ the middle of the 1st S/N block.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

I submit to you "experts" on the carbine that mine is one of the stocks mentioned by Bruce Canfield in the following (from Pg 256 of Bruce Canfield's book on the carbine):

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

Or are you guys also "hear (sic) to learn" resistant as I was accused by ScottR, above?

RonJon

Probably where Harrison obtained his information from. War Baby is not without errors. War Baby has not been revised for sometime and is due for some needed updates. The best source for updated information is the Carbine Club. They have ongoing data and years of data sheets. Rock Ola used a one piece stamp. You have a nice desirable 6 million Rock-Ola. Your stock while made by Rock-Ola, was not used on original Rock-Ola mfgd. carbines.

Ron, I was just trying to ID the faint cross cannons on the right side, as it did not look like the Rock-ola cross cannons. I did misspell the word (here), I should have proof read my statement. There is tons of carbine information not in War Baby, Bruce C., Craig Riesch and Harrisons books. Regardless of the debate on the stock, it is a very nice carbine, I do not believe it has been restored as suggested in the other forum. Good luck.

Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottR

Ron, I was just trying to ID the faint cross cannons on the right side, as it did not look like the Rock-ola cross cannons. I did misspell the word (here), I should have proof read my statement. There is tons of carbine information not in War Baby, Bruce C., Craig Riesch and Harrisons books. Regardless of the debate on the stock, it is a very nice carbine, I do not believe it has been restored as suggested in the other forum. Good luck.

Scott

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Thank you for that Scott.

RonJon :)

Yes it is a late Rock, but the I-cut stock did occasionally show up on new carbines even in the late blocks. If there is a cartouche on the stock, we need to see a picture of it to determine if the stock is late use or early use.

Ron wins either way.
Even if the stock is a QHMC or a RMC...both are very valuable stocks.
I also have the feeling that carbine isn't a put together.
It's had a easy life....the condition shows that much.
For the price he paid.... Ron should be grinning for the rest of the year and then some !!
Join the Carbine Club. Amazing collection of info. Many of the authors have used info from and contributated to it.
The books just don't cover it all.
We are finding something new every month.
Once again thank you for sharing your find with us.
I vote it.....Rock Ola DEAL of the month!!

Regards
Charlie-painter777

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Ron wins either way.
Even if the stock is a QHMC or a RMC...both are very valuable stocks.
I also have the feeling that carbine isn't a put together.
It's had a easy life....the condition shows that much.
For the price he paid.... Ron should be grinning for the rest of the year and then some !!
Join the Carbine Club. Amazing collection of info. Many of the authors have used info from and contributated to it.
The books just don't cover it all.
We are finding something new every month.
Once again thank you for sharing your find with us.
I vote it.....Rock Ola DEAL of the month!!

Regards
Charlie-painter777

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Thanks Charlie very much for that nice post! :wave:

RonJon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimb16

Yes it is a late Rock, but the I-cut stock did occasionally show up on new carbines even in the late blocks. If there is a cartouche on the stock, we need to see a picture of it to determine if the stock is late use or early use.

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jimb16,

There is a cartouche, but the identification of it is un-determinable (to say the obvious!).

Someone must have sanded it and then put what looks like an "RIA/EB" (Rock Island Arsenal) rework mark, and then THAT was sanded over again! So there's not a lot to see as you can see in this picture that I reproduced from the above discussion:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

The only thing that I can say for sure is that I measure 9.5 centimeters (or approximately 3 3/4") from the forward edge of the oiler cutout to the center of the cartouche.

RonJon

Can you determine the diameter of the belt on the crossed cannons? It looks like it i clear enough for that. It doesn't appear to be Rock-Ola and isn't IBM or Underwood. It loos like it could be SG or Winchester.

:dunno:

Faulkner,
Jimbo lost me there also....
Knowing the size of a RIA over EB box....It looks like it very well could be the QHMC big wheel.

Charlie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimb16

Can you determine the diameter of the belt on the crossed cannons? It looks like it i clear enough for that. It doesn't appear to be Rock-Ola and isn't IBM or Underwood. It loos like it could be SG or Winchester.

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The best I could measure it looked to be just under 1/2" (maybe 7/16"?).

Ron

This Rock-Ola was produced in Oct. 43. It shows high usage and is believed to be a bring back, still having it's original I-Cut highwood stock and handguard. Rock-Ola was also known to mark stocks for their carbines with an R.

David,

Nice looking stock markings.

I really like your display stand too. Did you make it?

Jim

Thanks Jim, I forget who made it, but it was someone who made display stands for a living. I think the cost was around $45.00. I will probably make them in the future, something like what Stu is using. Going to need one for the Garands too!

I'm wondering if there are any additional letters in the sling well of RonJon's stock where RMC is stamped. If the crossed cannons are IBM or Inland, there should be a B or I, though they may be hard to see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dbarn

I'm wondering if there are any additional letters in the sling well of RonJon's stock where RMC is stamped.

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Absolutely no additional letters - only "RMC".

RonJon