1903 WW2 Rifles

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09-05-2009, 07:47 PM
wayne10

1903 WW2 Rifles

Data wanted. Springfield Arsenal manufactured a sizeable amount of newly made 1903's during WW2. They had all milled SA parts, usually 1942 SA barrel, SA manufactured Bolt. semi pistol grip (scant) stock with GAW cartouche.
The guns are original SA made with high number receiver (not the Remington overhauls with some stamped parts and overhaul cartouches). Many have been sporterized or made "correct" by collectors using unmarked or older vintage bolts, straight stocks etc.
I will be publishing numbers, cartouches, and special bolt markings. Please let me know if you have one with the GAW cartouche and the other WW2 milled parts. Wayne
09-05-2009, 09:28 PM
Lancebear

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne10

Data wanted. Springfield Arsenal manufactured a sizeable amount of newly made 1903's during WW2. They had all milled SA parts, usually 1942 SA barrel, SA manufactured Bolt. semi pistol grip (scant) stock with GAW cartouche.
The guns are original SA made with high number receiver (not the Remington overhauls with some stamped parts and overhaul cartouches). Many have been sporterized or made "correct" by collectors using unmarked or older vintage bolts, straight stocks etc.
I will be publishing numbers, cartouches, and special bolt markings. Please let me know if you have one with the GAW cartouche and the other WW2 milled parts. Wayne

Hey wayne10,

Think someone has given you some bum information.

Springfield Arsenal manufactured and assembled M1903 rifles from 1903 through 1939. No new rifles after 1939 but I guess rearsenaled rifles after that.

All original SA M1903's would have had milled parts.

Remington and Smith Corona were the only two manufacturers of new M1903 (Remington), M1903A3 and A4 sniper rifles during the WWII years.

Scant stocks were made as field replacement or arsenal replacement stocks. Only new made rifles that left Remington or Smith with scants were sniper rifles.

The early Remington M1903's left the factory with straight grasping groove stocks I think, and later ones and 03A3's with straight stocks, not scants.

Smith Corona only made M1903A3's and I think A4's. All of their A3's would have had straight stocks with no grasping grooves. A4's...some had scant stocks or C stocks.

Don't think scant stocks should have an arsenal cartouche, arsenal rework markings yes. Maybe original sniper scant stocks would have a cartouche, but I am not familiar with sniper rifles.

Do you have a copy of Col. Brophy's "The Springfield 1903 Rifles"? It will help you greatly in your study of "The Great Rifle".

I'm no guru, but think I have this right.

Regards,

Lancebear
09-05-2009, 09:50 PM
PeteDavis

There are tons of scant stocks with legit SA/GAW cartouches. I had one w/o the A3 ring. Perhaps John Beard can explain how these stocks came to be inspected by GAW. Were these M1903 overhauls done by SA?

PD
09-05-2009, 10:31 PM
Johnny Peppers

Springfield Armory put the same proof marks and acceptance stamps on rebuilds that it did on new production. At one time I had a 1.46 million Springfield with a 1934 barrel in a thick wrist C stock with SA/GAW acceptance marks and P proof.
09-05-2009, 10:35 PM
Lancebear

Hey Pete,

Thanks for the info. Don't recall ever seeing a scant stock with a cartouche but I sure so believe you. Have four great '03's, not a single cartouche, plenty of rework marks though. Have two rifles with nice scant stocks. One has no markings whatsoever, the other has a very large Augusta Arsenal marking and proof "P's" from San Antonio.

Pete, do those GAW marked scants also have crossed cannons? Sure J.B. can shed some light.

How the heck are things up in the mountains? Haven't seen photos of your stonework lately.

Death to tyrants and schemers,

Lancebear
09-05-2009, 11:17 PM
Calif-Steve

I have 2 '03 (not 03-A3!!) scant stocks but no cartouche marks of any sort. Most scant stocks were '03-A3, so an '03 scant stock is uncommon.
09-06-2009, 12:06 AM
Lancebear

Steve,

Have two M1903's sittin' in scant stocks. Can you post photos to show the difference between a scant cut for an '03 and one cut for an A3, something about the A3 ring? '03 scant won't fit on an A3, but an A3 will fit on both...that right?

Ya' got me thinkin'. Will break the two rifles down tomorrow and take photos of the inside of the stocks and post if I have time.

Lancebear
09-06-2009, 02:06 AM
Calif-Steve

No photos needed. The 03-A3 has a very obvious cut-out in the stock for the handguard ring. The 03 lacks said cut-out. Very easy to see when looking at the serial number from the top of the rifle. The handguard ring sits in the cut-out.
09-06-2009, 04:23 AM
Lancebear

Steve,

Broke a nice '03 apart tonight with a Scant stock. Took some photos. Looks like it is an M1903 scant stock.

Not a fan of scant stocks but this one is mighty nice. Matter of fact, the stock is what attracted me to the rifle at a local show.

AAG rearsenal, but the stock is untouched, no sanding, no scraping. Great grain and patina.

Will post photos tomorrow evening.

Lancebear
09-06-2009, 08:54 AM
PeteDavis

Yep, there are crossed cannons on the ones I have seen, below the SA GAW marks.

Here's a chimney I finished solo on 6-6-09. One helper on the ground. 23' and 80" wide at base. Since the date was matched, I dedicated it to all allied participants in OVERLORD 1944.

PD

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-8.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-9.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-10.jpg
09-06-2009, 10:42 AM
Rick the Librarian

I've also seen a number of stocks with SA/GAW inspection stamps and assumed they were rebuilds. Naturally, there is some disagreement about the number of rifles assembled from spare parts during WWII. Some sources say large numbers (in the tens of thousands) ohers say relatively few. I would lean towards the latter.

I'll be interested to see the data, however.
09-06-2009, 01:51 PM
RCS

SA GAW rebuild stamp

I had a nice Model 1903A3 stock with the SA GAW stamp and have seen the M1903A1 "C" stock with the SA GAW stamp too.

I do have a Winchester M1 stock with the rebuild SA GAW and the AN stamp on the butt, attempted to post

Also could find 22 cal training rifles and M1 carbines with this stamp
09-06-2009, 10:32 PM
Kirk

Many happy & warm winter's nights by your fire!
09-06-2009, 11:19 PM
Lancebear

Pete,

Your stonework is amazing...you know that though.

Like the Roman arch over the fireplace. That was a nice moment in engineering.

Regards,

Lancebear
09-06-2009, 11:50 PM
gunluvver

My 1929 SA 03 came with a 1919 Avis barrel, and an SA GAW 03 scant stock. Hardware was SA 03 except the bolt, which was a Commercial Controls replacement bolt.
09-07-2009, 03:44 AM
wayne10

WW2 Rifles

We have the data on the contract between SA and Army. The rifles are well known by collectors but examples are hard to find. They were all delivered according to contract and have all SA parts including stocks and metal. As always, all SRS data is based on government documents. I will be printing any data that exists but would like more samples.

Wayne
09-07-2009, 10:02 AM
Rick the Librarian

How many rifles were they contracting for, Wayne?
09-07-2009, 11:12 PM
John Beard

Springfield Armory M1903 WWII Production

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne10

Data wanted. Springfield Arsenal manufactured a sizeable amount of newly made 1903's during WW2. They had all milled SA parts, usually 1942 SA barrel, SA manufactured Bolt. semi pistol grip (scant) stock with GAW cartouche.
The guns are original SA made with high number receiver (not the Remington overhauls with some stamped parts and overhaul cartouches). Many have been sporterized or made "correct" by collectors using unmarked or older vintage bolts, straight stocks etc.
I will be publishing numbers, cartouches, and special bolt markings. Please let me know if you have one with the GAW cartouche and the other WW2 milled parts. Wayne

Wayne,

The rifles you describe are listed in the Springfield Armory 1944 and 1945 annual reports as overhauls. I have seen many dozens of them at the CMP and that's exactly what they are. They are assembled from mixed assorted parts. They are not newly made. And they are not necessarily fitted with scant stocks. Serial numbers run all over the spectrum.

My data show that Springfield Armory couldn't have assembled new rifles during that period even if they had wanted to. They had no receivers and most parts of the M1903 rifle were no longer in production (except by spare parts contractors).

If you wish to explore this subject further, please e-mail me at jvbeard(at)knology.net. (use the "at" symbol).

Thanks!

John Beard
09-08-2009, 08:53 PM
wayne10

WW@ Rifles

At least two general contracts.

Remington overhauls with mixed parts, many Remington A3 parts, all different stocks, and stamped parts (CMP sales).

Springfield Armory contract. Army went beyond general deliveries and made a contract with SA for 1903 rifles. 1942 SA barrels, scant stocks with GAW cartouche, all milled parts made by SA including bolts and sights. So far, all stocks found were scant with proof and cartouche and 1942 barrels. Stocks made without A3 ring cut (rumors that some were made with cut).

I will be printing photos of stock markings, bolt and barrel markings etc.
Samples are scarce and more needed for more information. All numbers observed were very high numbers.

It appears that original rifles are scarce. Many appear to be "fixed" to conform to pre war configurations.

(John--can not get emails to you).

Cheers,

Wayne
09-08-2009, 11:45 PM
John Beard

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne10

At least two general contracts.

Remington overhauls with mixed parts, many Remington A3 parts, all different stocks, and stamped parts (CMP sales).

Springfield Armory contract. Army went beyond general deliveries and made a contract with SA for 1903 rifles. 1942 SA barrels, scant stocks with GAW cartouche, all milled parts made by SA including bolts and sights. So far, all stocks found were scant with proof and cartouche and 1942 barrels. Stocks made without A3 ring cut (rumors that some were made with cut).

I will be printing photos of stock markings, bolt and barrel markings etc.
Samples are scarce and more needed for more information. All numbers observed were very high numbers.

It appears that original rifles are scarce. Many appear to be "fixed" to conform to pre war configurations.

(John--can not get emails to you).

Cheers,

Wayne

Wayne,

Check your e-mail. :wave:

John Beard
09-08-2009, 11:51 PM
John Beard

WWII M1903 Rifle Overhaul Contracts

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne10

At least two general contracts.

Remington overhauls with mixed parts, many Remington A3 parts, all different stocks, and stamped parts (CMP sales).

Springfield Armory contract. Army went beyond general deliveries and made a contract with SA for 1903 rifles. 1942 SA barrels, scant stocks with GAW cartouche, all milled parts made by SA including bolts and sights. So far, all stocks found were scant with proof and cartouche and 1942 barrels. Stocks made without A3 ring cut (rumors that some were made with cut).

I will be printing photos of stock markings, bolt and barrel markings etc.
Samples are scarce and more needed for more information. All numbers observed were very high numbers.

It appears that original rifles are scarce. Many appear to be "fixed" to conform to pre war configurations.

(John--can not get emails to you).

Cheers,

Wayne

I have extensive documentation and data on the Remington contract, as well as representative rifles in my collection.

The Springfield contract is covered in their annual reports.

And then there was a third contract..... :nono:

J.B.