Maybe not everyones cup of tea but came across these imports while sorting out some other stuff.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SMLERHOD-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../RHODNo5-1.jpg
ATB Kevin
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Maybe not everyones cup of tea but came across these imports while sorting out some other stuff.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SMLERHOD-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../RHODNo5-1.jpg
ATB Kevin
Can I ask how you know they're Rhodesian as opposed to Zimbabwean? I'm not trying to be funny here but I'd be suprised if that was sanctioned by the Rhodesian military, unless it was some guard force, and thought it to likely be a post 1980 paint job. I have a FN FAL with very similar camouflague work that came from Rhodesia but have always suspected it was done post 1980.
Good point :dunno: .........can anyone enlighten me?
Have also seen 7.62mm South African Bren conversions and GPMG's with 'new' RA prefix serial numbers in the same cammo scheme.
ATB Kevin
I think we need to put the call out to John R a memeber with some experience in Rhodesia
Looks like some ZIPRA paint job to me as we have some ZIPRA AK's with an identical paint job. The No5 looks a bit, er............. well the word 'butchered' springs to mind, zipra fashion to me
I dimly recall that the Rhodesians followed British Army practice - the SF types did spray-paint some brown stripes over their weapons (nothing like the all-over job above), but the rest of the field army kept their weapons (mostly) standard.
All the Rhodesian 1st line weapons-FN, G3, brens, MAG, were painted a dark blue/green & light yellow green as in the top picture. some were sprayed, most done with a paint brush-stripes or blotches. this included magazines as well. the colours used were the same as the vehicle camo. there was no standard pattern-the paint was handed out & the guys did their weapons. the lee enfields were used by farm militias, but weren't usually painted. I would be surprised if this was post 1980 work
South African 7.62mm Bren conversion with RA re-serial numbered prefix with same cammo pattern.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mage0072-1.jpg
ATB Kevin
I have fired a bren with a mag just like in the picture-2 FN mags brazed together. they held about 35 rounds if I remember correctly. It actually worked!
What type of extended spring do they then use, with such an alteration? I would think the spring function would be the weak link here?
very interesting...
218bee
can't speak for the Rhodesian camo jobs but during my basic training in the SADF in 1985 my issued FN FAL was a camo job. Looked crap but shot like a dream. Another benefit was that it did not have to be sparkly clean on parade.
Just going on the ones I have, the 30rnd one has an extra section of spring joined to the main spring by the ends inserted into a copper tube and soft soldered.Quote:
Originally Posted by 218bee
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...agspring-1.jpg
The 40rnd mag is extended by an extra section of spring that is wire bound and soft soldered to the main spring section.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mage0077-1.jpg
Soft solder should not have affected the temper of the spring and they still function OK today........a neat solution.
A kind person has given me a link to plenty of pics of Rhodesian cammo weapons that ID the cammo as 'pre Bob'
ATB Kevin
Great link and I guess that answers the question
I'd be inyterested to know if the backsight is recalibrated to 7.62mm Metric or left in its .303" guise KevG. The generally accepted notion that a .303"-yards backsight was the same as a correctly calibrated 7.62mm sight when read in metres was an absolute myth.
They equated on the 25 yard range but thereafter, it was just a myth
A kind person has given me a link to plenty of pics of Rhodesian cammo weapons that ID the cammo as 'pre Bob'
ATB Kevin[/QUOTE]
A great link, I have not seem so many photo's of the Rhodesian armed forces. I like to think that their memory will live on.
The Rhodesian cammo is still very different from the pictured weapons, and nowhere near the "all over" coverage.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mage0096-1.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbox
Peter the original .303 calibration has been scrubbed and re-engaved with metric range markings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
ATB Kevin
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mage0078-1.jpg
There was a lot of variation in the applied camo pattern, and if some Rhodesian weapons don't seem to have an "overall coverage", it's probably because they were being humped around in the bush & banged against vehicles for years.
Not really, the weapons I remember were as in the photos - usually one, sometimes two, colours painted on to break up the outline of the weapon. Painting all over, as in the two Enfields, tends to negate the camouflage effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by infidel
It would be interesting to see whether any photos of similar Enfields in use in Rhodesia turn up. What is the actual provenance for the rifles?
The top one has a Rhodesian paint scheme while the bottom one does not (although the Rhodesian forces did use No. 5s). I'm curious as to whether or not any of these have RA serial numbers stamped or electropenciled on them, as this is often found on weapons that were in Rhodesian service.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev G
As for usage of Lee-Enfields, Intaf forces used them (military units that were part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs), Guard Forces may have used them, the BSAP (British South Africa Police) made some use of them, and they were also used for training purposes (I've actually seen pictures of them being used this way on websites). For a little while after UDI, some may have been used by Territorials or rear-echelon units. As it is, the Rhodesians used quite the variety of weapons.
Here's some pictures of the Lee-Enfield in Rhodesian service. The first is of personnel in the British South Africa Police. The second is of Rhodesian soldiers running an assault course during training. The third is of either police or private security in Rhodesia in 1979. The fourth is of Rhodesian soldiers training. The fifth is of some sort of Rhodesian unit being inspected, I am not sure what unit, where, or by whom.
An website about Intaf forces has pics of Lee-Enfields being used by Intaf troops, and I've seen other pictures on the web; in some cases the details are hard to make out. I have one that is pre-UDI but post-adoption of the L1A1 SLR, but it was too big to upload.
With cammo like that I have to ask the question, but how would you find it if you dropped it?
I've just examined several of these rifles - all No1s. They have been imported into UK from South Africa. All of them bear SA "WR" weapons registry numbers, two have SA service marks, none have RA or other specific Rhodie service indications.
Difficult to deduce any provenance prior to the SA phase of their lives.
Sadly, they are all in scrap condition and heading for the de-act cutter - common fate of much of the SA stuff, where it seems the owners trashed them before handing them in...
The rifles,pistols,Brens and GPMG's that I have seen and shown pictures of were directly imported into the UK from Zim not SA.
I can't comment on the rifles apart from some bare a British South Africa Police BSAP mark to the top of the reciever.A large proportion of the Brens have been reserial numbered with the RA prefix though others retain their original s/n.
The 'all over' cammo pattern can be seen in the picture montage of Rhodesian weapons I posted earlier.
ATB Kevin
Bigstick61's pictures of Lee Enfields and Fal's prior to 1980 seem to be devoid of cammo paint. Perhaps the cammo painting is time or unit specific?
I left the Rhodarmy in 1975 upon completion of service.48 hours later I was the Chief Engineer in the mining division of Ingersoll-Rand(South Africa)Pty Ltd.
During my service in Rhodesia we had NO camo painted small arms whatever.
We were however taking brand new and never issued SAVAGE/STEVENS No4MkI* rifles out of their original packing and turning them into assault course rifles by welding the bolts to the receiver rings after first drilling a hole in the chamber and big stick welding a blob in the hole.All the rifles were bogging with cosmoline and we had a few fires.Shame that but orders were orders and all that.
Brand new SA R1M1 FN-FAL's and ther aforementioned Lyttleton Engineering/ARMSKOR converted to 7.62x51mmNATO MkI and MkII Brens as well as everything else including the Savage/Stevens No4's had a RA (Rhodesian Army) and a number pantograph engraved on it.My FN was RA 9918 and the numbers were on the upper receiver just below the ejection port on the right with the same number on the lower receiver,breech block and carrier.Interestingly enough the SA supplied FN's arrived at Army Workshops at KGVI Bks with ONLY a 6 digit serial number and NOTHING else that would denote SA origin.We had Uzi's(Belgian Built)Sterling SMG's(Brit) Browning HP's(Cdn and Belgian)P1's(P.38's with just a dot in a circle(Manurhin methinks) and the serial number)Star Model B's in 9mm Para and MAG-58's along with a few leftover Brit GPMG's.Brit L1A1 FN's from Federal Days(many were RNG marked (Rhodesia /Nyasaland Govt) and 500 Lithgow L1A1's that the Aussies had shipped via RAIL to Kenny the kaffir in Zambia from Durbs by the Sea.Some sharp eyed Rhodesia Railways oke spotted this on the waybills so the rifles were"confiscated" and being brand new were also RA numbered and issued to the Goffel Road Protection Coy's.SMG's interestingly enough were usually issued to farmer's wives and coloured Service Corps types.a "REAL" soldier got a rifle.
RhodAF were issuing WWII M2 Brownings in .303" as door guns in their Allouette IIIC's(firing SA MkVIII .303 ball and tracer) and after I left the army were issuing them too on pedastal mounts in vehicles for convoy protection.
Only .50 Cal M2 Browning I knew of was in the Museum in Gwelo which was a pity because I once ordered trenches dug (for a Classical War Exercise)alongside the old runways at Brady Bks just outside Byo and we hit a vein of buried in 1945 LINKED 50 cal ammo that was as good as the day it was buried in a bulldozed pit when the Commonwealth Air Training Programme closed down at WWII's end.We found tens of thousands of rds ALL EC4(Eau Claire 1944)headstamped.
I ALSO had an even dozen BRAND NEW Long Branch No4MkI*(T)'s in my lockup at KG VI that were never issued.ALL were 1945 dated 90L's with No32Mk3 scopes.I have often wondered if the munts sold them to the Brits arms dealers or if they kept them.Pity to cast pearls before swine like that lot and I mean BOTH the munts and the Brit Dealers.Could also be part of Madgrabe's retirement fund I suppose.
As a first year CPT for pay purposes but getting FULL pay and allowances from my company and driving an Olds 442(not very far on 25 Litres a month petrol ration)I had LOTS of money and nothing to spend it on.I was paid more than Peter Walls the Army Commander PLUS half the high priced help in the "Corridors" as Army HQ was called.I was REALLY happy to get to Jo'Burg where the girls were so pretty and you could actually BUY something with your money after 18 months in that man's army.I did an appreciation for Gen Walls in May 1974 in which I detailed/forecast that which was to come and for which he was ready to have me shot(said so too) and my FIRST prognostication was that the porks/pork and cheeses were going to throw in the towel within 6 weeks...I was FOUR weeks off.TWO weeks later we were watching Frelimo AND the Porks walking arm in arm in Villa Manica."Nao fash mal".
Oh well, sic transit gloria mundi I suppose.I really SHOULD do some work here this morning.
Cheers all,JR
JR, reading your post was priceless! I am an ex SADF soldier myself, and visited Rhodesia twice, 1977 and 79. Had a cousin in the SAS there that was a badass, and the best natural shot I ever saw. These days he is running hunting safaris, have not heard from him in years and no way to get in touch with him. Smuggled my SADF R1 into Rhodesia in 77 hidden behind my car seat as it was a scary place to be, thankfullly I was not searched, but I am sure the Rhodesians would have been happy to have it, and the SADF VERY unhappy..:yikes:
VERY interesting thread JohnR. We had a little intelligence booklet relating to weapon markings of the various nations and subversives etc of the era and it stated that RNG was Royal Nepal Government (Nepal had a king then of course). Maybe this needs clarifying if anyone else can shed a bit of light on the subject.
Can we have part 2, the continuing saga now John!
The Rhodesians took any weapon they could get their hands on. I remember seeing .303 brens showing up late 78, early 79. They were being used by Intaf or Guard force. On a callup in late 79 there a water cooled .50 browning, mounted on the back of a Unimog. When I saw it, it was being towed, having hit a mine on the way in. We always had extraction problems on the .303 brownings on the convoys, but they sure had a high rate of fire. This is the view from the turrethttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/rur2ns-1.jpg
Woweeeee, brilliant picture. We have one at Warminster, salvaged from the rear turret of a crashed Lancaster and dozed into the side of a field. But still presentable but in spite of a year or so's on and off work, it's still too buckled to operate. Too much friction in the body and barrel trunnions.
Thanks Peter,Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I was at an aircraft museum last year and they had one of the .303 aircraft brownings on display. I said to the museum guy "I've shot one of those things", and he looked at me like I had grown 2 heads.
god, that looks great, and very into being very usefull in the bush.
Thread coolness 10/10.
Just as a matter of interest a job lot of personal defence Rhodesian Cobra carbines also came over on the last shipment from Zim.
Also GPMG with Rhodesian markings BSAP. An ammusing video clip of the Rhodesian British South African Police can be seen here.
Good video KevG. Can I see South Africa as Rhodesia in, say, 10 years? Or have I overstepped the PC line.........?
KevG. Were the cobras square in cross section & have sort of a baked on green finish? I had forgotten about them. there were a couple of other locally made weapons, some were crap. this one wasn't bad:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../11c7bx2-1.jpg
Cracking picture Infidel :thup:
This is the best pic I can offer of the Cobras that are getting chopped for the UK deac market :(
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10/cobra-1.jpg
As you said they are square in section with a matt green finish with rubber pistol grip and forearm and semi auto.
Would have preffered full auto if I was trying to protect my family from a mob screaming for blood !
ATB Kevin
I remember them now. I think there may have been an issue with the folding stock-metal too easy to bend? You couldn't "own " a full auto in Rhodesia, so these carbines were all semi-auto. The government "issued" full auto weapons such as stens & uzis to people in the rural areas. Surprisingly, there were very few sterlings, I only saw one or two. There were very few SMG's in the security forces per se, no stopping power, or ability to penetrate bush.
The R76 pictured (any show up yet?) used a hi-power type mag. guys used to get the 20 round mags for their hi-powers.
I only have the other side.
Mmmmmmmm. If it was that 'orrible R-76, a Cobra or that .303 Browning, I know which one I'd be grabbing hold of to calm the screaming hoardes....
If you're going to get picky ;)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._mine_af-1.jpg
Also some ex South African FN manufactured Uzi SMG's reserial numbered with the Rhodesian RA prefix.
The LDP. not the finest design. bits fell off if I remember correctly.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2eqdlw3-1.jpg
Is that LDP a take on the little Czech gun Infidel? You know, the one with the overhanging bolt... a bit like an UZI.........
The cz24/25? I would guess that would be the inspiration-overhanging bolt & mag in pistol grip, receiver body round in cross section, big threaded cap at rear. I was given a cz25 by an employer as a self defence weapon ( a step up from the Sten issued previously ). It was probably SA made-no markings, very handy weapon, 40 round mag. I still have the mimeographed instruction pages that came with it. the Rhodesians called it the GM 15 SS. The semi-auto only version was called the GM 16, if I remember correctly. They were definitely better than the LDP.
Better pictures - and both sides. In Germany they were offered as RUZI (Rhodesian Uzi)
From what I've read the first to put camouflage paint on their weapons was the Rhodesian tracking unit in the 1960s, although they started painting them in a sort of green color (solid) before the camouflage. Eventually other front-line units began to slowly do it during the 1970s. From what I've read, the painting of weapons throughout the armed forces did not begin in earnest until things really heated up in 1977, whereupon an order was issued for pretty much all small arms in service to be so painted, not to mention the removal of carrying handles on weapons like the FAL/SLR and the prohibition against the use of slings (although I've seen pictures where these rules are all being violated, but in most pictures from this period the weapons are in compliance with such an order).Quote:
Originally Posted by Amatikulu
The first Lee-Enfield in the OP was most likely painted in 1977 or later, possibly even sometime after the country succumbed and became Zimbabwe (I've heard the paint may have remained in use for a little while after the end of UDI and independence from Britain). Sometime in the early or mid 1980s the camouflage paint colors for vehicles was changed to try to remove all trace of the Rhodesian contribution to the armed forces (the uniforms were changed for some time as well as part of this and efforts were made to push whites out of the military, especially more senior officers); these colors are a sort of shade of green and a khaki or tan-like color. Some of the Rhodesian FAL kits coming into the U.S. actually are in this color scheme, and quite often you can tell that that layer of paint was applied over the original Rhodesian paint, which was not removed before the rifle was repainted. The No. 5 in the OP does not have such a color scheme, so it was probably painted by rebels or by another military.
On a somewhat related note, I recall on another forum reading a post by a former Rhodesian airman that his FAL was not painted and that late in the game this was more common in the Air Force than the Army, but what caught my attention was that he stated that his FAL had been modified to accept the spike bayonet from a No. 4 Lee-Enfield, which he as issued as well, the barrel on his weapon not threaded or fitted with any sort of muzzle device. Probably an instance of making due with what one had, which was common during UDI, and is partly why the Lee-Enfield was never completely removed from service.
Hi John:
The old Federal Army of the 2 Rhodesias and Nyasaland had a variety of marks stamped on their equipment.
The Crowfoot with FRN,(Fed of Rodesia & Nyasaland) RNG,(Rhodesia & Nyasaland) NRG (Northern Rhodesia Gov't) SRG (Southern Rhodesia Gov't), NG (Nyasaland Gov't) to quote just a few and also used a Triangle with all that above alphabets.
After ther Federal break-up kit was still issued years later sporting the various old ownership markings.
roconn
Mangwanani mdala.
I still have a few Olive Green towels that I was issued at KGVI in April 1974 that have a big RNG in a diamond stencilled on them.
If you knew the QM you could get stable belts from all the old disbanded Federal Regt's and Corps for a chibuli/chibuku(beer) or three and then swap the stable belts to the SAP for maningi useful items(like that nice SAP camo kit that blended in with the Rhodesian terrain much better than did the dark green and earth brown camo we had on issue.I still have two SAP combat jackets and floppy hats.Still have a non-issue floppy hat that I had made at Chiltern Hat in Byo out of some RA issue camo denim that I scaled at KG VI.Even that SA"Nutria" reddish brown kit was spot on colourwise due to that reddish earth that i'Afrika is made out of.)
I still miss "poaching" steenbokkies and duiker at dusk with my muffled(French MAB "silencer") Beretta .22 so we would have nyama with our sadza and tea.My sweet wife is always making maningi noises about WHY do I still go hunting every autumn and in PARTICULAR WHY did I buy 160 acres of land to hunt on(in peace).
Hunting muntu was a lot more interesting you must admit.It would be nice NOT to have varicose veins on both ankles from wearing "stick boots" and puttees(Fox Gurkha Grey of course) hose tops and shorts with Sam Blacke(vs Sam Browne) with silver fittings and hard stars on parade at Llewellyn Bks too.I once weighed myself in full bundu order and then stripped off and weighed myself again starkers.EIGHTY SIX POUNDS OF KIT...madness !!
Bundook,M1911A1 pistol,radio,batteries,roller meal,sugar,salt,tea,tobasco sauce,ammo,mags,6 grens(962's x 4 and 2 x 970's)socks,gotchies,maps,2 water bottles,binos,whacking great Brit prismatic compass,panga,"L"head flashlight/torch and g*d knows what else.I kept one pair of denims and my combat jacket rolled up on top of my kidney pouches to either wear or use as a pillow and was lucky enough to have two US Army issue poncho liners and a CDN Army sweater for cold weather.People here have NO IDEA just how cold the high veldt can get in say July and August.Shiver city at times.
I used to carry boiled sweets for the piccanins too and it was amazing how much int you could get from the nannies after you gave the little ones a few sweets.All those 300 pounders we used to see(more lobolo for the bigger umfaazis) now weigh under 100 pounds and the fat little piccanins all look like Ethiopian famine victims after 30 years of Bob&Co.How to ruin a country that fed itself and most of Southern Africa in very short order...Ain't UHURU grand?One man,one vote,ONCE for one fat cat who decides dat bein de Prezidunt fo life bein a good thing so he be stayin on fo a bit.Usually until he gets what the Russians euphemistically called "his nine grammes" behind the ear.
Enough of this reminiscing here.Time to go fishing.
(By the by my friends,I am a BORN CANADIAN and did NOT join the Rhodesian Army by choice.It was sort of like the warden offering you a choice between AC or DC after they strapped you into the chair.The insulated chair with all the attached cables...)
My company sent me off to i'Afrika to sort out a problem with a raise borer and shortly thereafter I received the"call to the colours" by"crossed letter".At that point I had no clue what a crossed letter was either.I very quickly found out along with acquiring a pretty good working knowledge of chi Shona and Ndebele.Next was Afrikaans.I already spoke German and Russian (which was de rigeur in the Canadian Intelligence Corps if you were a 2nd Lt(Reserves).18 months fighting the good fight in i'Afrika; all for NOWT as they are wont to say on"Mud Island" (aka the UK.)Tot siens boeties.
I thought I'd post my attempt at a translation of John R's post as he used a lot of words that would only be familiar to those who grew up in Southern Africa. Even then, we used different words in South Africa (where I came from) to those used in Rhodesia where John came from, but the similarity of our shared history I hope wil allow me to give a reasonable translation for those who are wondering what on earth he was saying :)
mangwanani mdala - basically is a respectful greeting losely saying good day (old) people.
maningi - means many
Byo - abbreviaton for Bulawayo the capital of Matabeleland
KG VI - King George VI
RA - Rhodesian Army
Stenbokkies - the Steenbok, a small species of deer found in Africa
Duiker - another small species of deer common throughout Southen Africa
nyama - meat
sadza - called pap in South Africa its cooked pulverized maize(corn) meal used as a staple diet by the people of Southern Africa
muntu - a black african word meaning people, in this case terrorists
bundu - the bush country
bundook - an indian word meaning service rifle
panga - machete (bloody big knife)
veldt - dutch term for the fields/pastures used to describe the countryside and preceded by high or low to indicate the elevation
piccanins - small black children
int - intelligence
nannies - a colloquial term for black mothers ( that were often nannies to white families)
lobolo - african term for the dowry a man must pay to take a wife
umfazi - married african woman
Bob&Co - Robert Mugabe(President of Zimbabwe) and his cronies
Uhuru - Swahili word meaning freedom - the title of a book about the independence struggle in Kenya written by Robert Ruark