thinking about getting a Garand soon. Have some Questions

I think I will be getting a CMP Garand soon, probably by the end of the year. I will be going to the North Store and getting one directly from there if I do get one. I really don't want to wait much longer as who knows how long they will have a decent supply available. Ive been doing some reading and I have some questions though.

1. I hear that you cant shoot hot loads, or even commercial ammo, in the gun due to the fact that the op rod can be bent from this. The one solution I hear is to use an adjustable gas plug for commercial loads, but Ive heard that there may be some issues with them and they only work to varying degrees.

Ive also heard the to op rod is definitely the weak link in the gun, yet Ive searched and searched and cannot seem to find any type of upgraded or heavy duty op rod for the gun. Is there such a thing made?? if not why?

I just don't understand the "hot load" nonsense. It it a kind of compensation for some other weakness? Why would you want to overload the mechanism with "hot loads" anyway? If 68 gns of blackpowder can drive a 520 gn lead bullet over 1000 yards and hit the target reliably, why overdrive any rifle?

Garands weren't built by Bubba, they were designed by a man who probably knew more about it than you or I ever will. So don't try to outguess him. And like any automatic, they will only function reliably with a much narrower load range than a bolt action rifle of the same caliber.

I apologize if you are upset by my bluntness, but one factor in good, accurate shooting is NOT to overload the rifle.

Patrick

Well, they make new commercial ammo loaded to the same specs as M2 Ball military ammo, but it's pricey. I wouldn't hesitate to use a few rounds of hunting ammo in an EMERGENCY, but it will beat your rifle to death soon if you do, and will cause functioning problems as well.

Charlie

When you purchase the Rifle get as much CMP Ammo that they will allow you to buy then look into some reloading you can get started very cheap.Buy as soon as possible i think there is a storm coming next year and you won't be able to get anything.I hope im wrong good luck

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

I just don't understand the "hot load" nonsense. It it a kind of compensation for some other weakness? Why would you want to overload the mechanism with "hot loads" anyway? If 68 gns of blackpowder can drive a 520 gn lead bullet over 1000 yards and hit the target reliably, why overdrive any rifle?

Garands weren't built by Bubba, they were designed by a man who probably knew more about it than you or I ever will. So don't try to outguess him. And like any automatic, they will only function reliably with a much narrower load range than a bolt action rifle of the same caliber.

I apologize if you are upset by my bluntness, but one factor in good, accurate shooting is NOT to overload the rifle.

Patrick

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The reason I ask about hot loads is 1, because I want to use to hunt with and 2 I may want to try my hand at some long range shooting someday. From what Ive been reading both of those may require using ammo loaded hotter than the M1 may like. Thats why I asked the question, not because im trying to compensate for some weakness as you put it. Im not trying to overload the rifle. Also It seems that most commercial ammo is loaded too hot for the M1, the day may come when I want to shoot and that all thats around.

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Originally Posted by gary

When you purchase the Rifle get as much CMP Ammo that they will allow you to buy then look into some reloading you can get started very cheap.Buy as soon as possible i think there is a storm coming next year and you won't be able to get anything.I hope im wrong good luck

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what is this storm you speak of?

Check out an adjustable gas screw, and this link: http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic...s=hunting,ammo

The storm, Loki, is brewing over the most dangerous spot on the globe right now, down in the badlands of the District of Columbia. There are some Americans who want to limit your right to own such a firearm and they may well make their intentions known next year, probably right after the mid-term elections.

Good luck and buy all you can now before it is too late.:nono:

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Originally Posted by Charlie59

Check out an adjustable gas screw, and this link: http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic...s=hunting,ammo

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Thats what I was wondering. Ive herd some people say they work great and ive heard other say they aren't worth it. Do you have any experience with them? Would it provide enough leeway to keep a 175g or maybe 180g bullet above 1300fps at 1000yds?

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Originally Posted by mack

The storm, Loki, is brewing over the most dangerous spot on the globe right now, down in the badlands of the District of Columbia. There are some Americans who want to limit your right to own such a firearm and they may well make their intentions known next year, probably right after the mid-term elections.

Good luck and buy all you can now before it is too late.:nono:

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I hear what youre saying. They floated that trial balloon earlier this year and it didnt go so well. I think they're more worried right now about just making it past the mid terms, not with what they will be doing after it, or at least they should be.

as does a whole lot of other "standard" commercial hunting ammuntion is perfect;;y OK to shoot and will do no harm. Most use canister grade powders in the medium slow range anyway. DOn't use anything like the "express" or "magnum" stuff.

I have a buddy who has shot nothing but green box Remington Core-Lokt for YEARS. It functions, ejects, perfectly and is a great hunting round. Buying a adjustable gas plug, however, isnt a bad idea and they are simple and reliable and for 35 bucks what the hey.

I never tried the adjustable gas screw. For what it's worth, other than many places won't allow ball ammo for hunting, M2 should kill animals as easily as it killed humans.

and is (arguably) un-ethical when reliably expanding hunting ammuntion and bullets are readily available.

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Originally Posted by loki993

I think I will be getting a CMP Garand soon, probably by the end of the year. I will be going to the North Store and getting one directly from there if I do get one. I really don't want to wait much longer as who knows how long they will have a decent supply available. Ive been doing some reading and I have some questions though.

1. I hear that you cant shoot hot loads, or even commercial ammo, in the gun due to the fact that the op rod can be bent from this. The one solution I hear is to use an adjustable gas plug for commercial loads, but Ive heard that there may be some issues with them and they only work to varying degrees.

Ive also heard the to op rod is definitely the weak link in the gun, yet Ive searched and searched and cannot seem to find any type of upgraded or heavy duty op rod for the gun. Is there such a thing made?? if not why?

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Here's a couple pics of some shooting I did today. I got both rifles from the North Store. Sunny and nice day-little wind. A six shot group using HXP, four shots LC-68 NM, shot with my SA field grade 5.8, with a new stock set. Barrel is 1.0 mw, te is 2. The group with about ten shots is from my new CMP Special. The first time I've shot it, it needs more grease, 50 or so settling in shots, and it has a spongy trigger. But, I think it certainly has possibilities. I also found that the HXP groups better than NM, at least in the 5.8. Pictures by Charlie59_photos - Photobucket

If you are going to get a Garand then understand it was a combat arm, not a dragster. It is capable of shooting a long, long way but understand it will never be a long range tack driver. Not even in national match dress. They do not stay in tune very long when in NM dress either. They were government property and spec to fire the existing stock of M2 ball ammo and that ammo production was continued in support of the Garand. Patrick is spot on, there is no place in Hot Roding a Garand. If you can’t get M2 mil spec ammo for the old girl then you have to hand load within the spec of issue ammo, or purchase civilian ammo listed as safe for the Garand by the company.

There are no heavy duty parts for Garands other than a bull barrel and they are for stability and accuracy . The adjustable gas valves and vents where made for tuning the harmonics and action speed and timing for accuracy, not for venting excessive pressure as many people do now. Clint ( Fowler ) came up with this many years ago and I use to talk with him about his concept.

If you want a Garand then use it within its operational envelope. If you want a long range hot rod tack driver then you should buy a M40 or equivalent.
:thup:

The adjustable gas SCREW and vents where made for tuning the harmonics and action speed and timing for accuracy
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if you think maybe two or three clicks of "usable" adjustment between a round that does NOT EJECT and a round that has TOO MUCH EJECTION is an accuracy "tuner," I have some prime bottom land you may be interested in on my uncle's farm. Likewise, the McCann hex screw system has FIVE screws which I supect TWO woujld work with any particular load. That ain't a "tuner." Adjustable gas screw systems are NOT like a barrel harmonic tuner. It's just a device that was made to give M1's the ability to control gas pressure when using slower powders than usually encountered.

ALSO, although it is perfectly safe to fire bullets up to 220 grains in an M1, the problem is that to get these heavier bullets up to "normal" speeds, again, you would need slower powders, thus the adjustment screw can bleed off the gas later in the firing cycle to get a normal feed/eject cycle with the gas system of the M1.

I have a Schuster system on my match prepped .308 Garand and I don't touch the current setting unless I switch to some South Afican 7.62 which is pretty whimpy and I have to tighten a click or two. Were I to load up some 175 SMKs with some Varget, I suspect I would need to turn it out ONE click, tops TWO. Again, this is to get NORMAL ejection.

To the extent that some SAFE heavier loads involve heavier bullets and or slower powders, YES, the adjustable screw systems do allow a bit of "hot rodding" for want of a better term.

And, yes, I used to live right down the road from Clint Fowler, go to gunshows with the guy, he worked on my rifles, etc. and his system ain't a tuner neither.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...000402_1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...r2004JPG-1.jpg

Your definition of tuning must be different than mine. When I adjust or regulate a gas system to change or control ejection, timing, op rod and bolt speed, that is tuning. Changing cycle speed and timing has a direct effect on barrel harmonics and barrel whip thus effecting accuracy. We will just have to disagree on concepts. My statement stands, there is no place for Hot Roding a Garand. And yes by current NM Garand has one of Clint’s gas plugs in it, it reduced the group size by better than an inch.

if tuning means a two or three (max) clicks tuning range between (A) a load that violently racks the operating rod back risking damage to the op-rod lugs and/or cracking the receiver heel; and (B) a load that only partially moves the bolt back and does not eject the next round, then it's a "tuner."

If Clint's choice of five screws insert system (i.e. the one McCann seems to have copied) reduced your group size by one inch (assuming 100 yards), it;s either just RANDOM chance or you likely STARTED at a point where your particular load's gas signature was causing problems. In other words, assuming the load was "safe/normal" in ANY Garand, it should shoot abuot the SAME in ANY particular Garand whether it has the screw in it or not.

Likewise, a Clint Fowler rifle (especially with heavy commercial barrel) should basically shoot ABOUT 1-MOA with quality handloaded match ammo, thus your pre-system load either was about 2MOA (fairly miserable) or your post-system load now should shoot about ZERO-MOA? Not much sense either way. But cheers nonetheless.

You may want to reacquaint yourself on what you are talking about. Clint’s gas plug system is a two Allen set screw system. There are no vents to change on the system I purchased from him. It changes the volume of the gas chamber. Issue ammo groups reduced. I don’t shoot one of Clint’s rifles. I shoot a match grade rifle I built for myself after building a few for customers. Likewise I do not have problems with my hand load match ammo. Adios

The Garand Rifle is not a delicate Prima Dona. It was made to last, perform and function under the worst of conditions, with minimal maintaince. It was produced with robust, over engineered parts that did not fail due to bean counters making something as cheaply as possible, as you might find currently in production, with ceramic mould cast parts, made by a CNC machine by the thousands for ten cents a dozen.