Indian captured Pakistan No.4 rifle pictures

Once in awhile an odd ball shows up. This weekend I found this 1960 production POF (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) which has matching numbers including magazine. All original serial numbers have been lined out and the manufactures mark, "P 60" has also been struck out. New matching serial numbers with a CPJ suffix have been added to all normal serial number locations including the magazine. The forestock has the "Indian" transverse screw.

Pakistan and India have had dust ups since 1965 and the biggest was December 3-16 1971. The cancellation of the other guy's markings and substituing your own has been encounted with other arms/countries. I have a Russian Nagant sniper rifle from Vietnam (with capture papers) that has had all Russian markings lined out on metal and wood.

This is all guess work but I think reasonable. I wonder what is the significance of the CPJ suffix. Probably a unique series developed by the bean counters to account for captured and reused material.

I wonder if Pakistan captures one back, will they change the serial numbers back? If this goes on for a few more iterations, there will not be enought metal available for the new serial numbers!

Obviously, Sahib, it stands for Captured Paki Junk, by golly.

gravityfan, I hope that slur was tounge in cheek. No, I'm not Pakistani.

As for the POF, No4 MkII, I personally think they are some of the best Lee Enfield variants on the market right now. Maybe even better than the British made rifles.

They have excellent and tight fitting circasion walnut furniture and usually excellent bores that measure out on the tight side, .310 or less, nothing yet over .311.

The POF No4 MKIIs have proven to be very accurate as well. They are made on ex British tooling and follow the specs to the letter.

"Junk" is hardly a decent description of these rifles. I will admit that they are usually covered in old, dried cosmolene and dirt when they are first encountered but they usually have all matching numbers and have been stored properly. That describes the POF rifles that have appeared in Canada anyway.

There must be something good about them. There were literally thousands of them imported into Canada and most sold anywhere from $275 - $350, without accessories, such as slings or bayonets. The accessories had to be purchased separately. I'm still looking for a Pakistani sling.

They first started to show up about two years ago and were plentiful. They are drying up fast as appreciation for their quality becomes known. In Canada anyway, I'll bet they will be as hard to find as the Indian 2A and 2A1 rifles are right now. At first, the .308 series 2 rifles were a hard sell as they were dirty and dinged. Now as shooters have been using them for a while, appreciation for them has grown so that they now command a premium price. No, it's not because of the cartridge it's chambered for either. I suspect the POF No4 MkI and MkII rifles will do the same by next year.

Purchase one while you still have the chance and wipe your nose.

beerhunter, We didn't seem to get the quantity of POF rifles y'all did. Sad for us.

Hopefully those with POF rifles will eventually post up about them so that we can all learn.

Brad

I must have gone out for popcorn, because I have yet to see a bad POF rifle. Springfield Sporters brought in a bunch about 8 years ago and they were all in good condition to excellent. I agree the fit and finish is as good as those built by Long Branch. I have never seen a Lee I didn't like.

Most definitely tongue in cheek. I have some dear Indian and Pakistani friends; so no racial slurs from me, merely light-hearted terms of endearment. Just check the list of Indian VC recipients to know what great people these are, yet no Hollywood films show dot-heads taking part in D-Day, or any other major battle for that matter. They were major contributors in both wars. A shame their heroism and service to the crown usually goes unremarked.

Knowing the terrible hatred between parts of what, until Partition, were one country divided only by religion; and knowing the sometimes ironic humour and use of English by my wobble-head friends, it just struck me as something they might actually do to call the captured rifles that way.

In fact I must look out for one of those, they are my initials. I could kid on that it had been personalised!

I do also have a P.O.F. No.2 (1960). Just about unfired condition when I got it, and it is one of my most accurate shooters. Very nicely put together, as others have mentioned. Definitely not something to be down-played. I would rate it in terms of build quality and shooting accuracy as the equal of my '55 UFs and '50s PFs.

Just my tuppence worth. Namaste.

And so you should rate it as highly as a PF or UF rifle because they were all made on the same machinery - although there is a bit of doubt as to whether the machinery that went to Pakistan was all Fazakerley or a mix of Fazakerley and the old BSA machinery that went up to Fazakerley for storeage and perhaps use after BSA ceased their Ministry of Supply contracts.

As soon as the No4 machinery went out, the L1A1 machinery was moved in and according to Police Inspector XXXX who ran the security aspects of the ROF there, industrial relations plummeted from 'extremely dire' to 'even more extremely dire.....' (his words to me...). What happened next has gone into history but while they could happily churn out unwanted No4 rifles, modernising to manufacture what the Ministry of Supply wanted was a step to far.

Oh yes, where were we.............?

Now that is music to my ears...my wife brought me one (with a little coaching) for my birthday last week. A 1958 POF No.4 Mk.2 & my first #4.
Still quite a bit of cosmo on it too. I managed to pick up a POF #9 bayonet at a gunshow & now just need a sling.
Peter (Burlington, Ontario)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhunter

gravityfan, I hope that slur was tounge in cheek. No, I'm not Pakistani.

As for the POF, No4 MkII, I personally think they are some of the best Lee Enfield variants on the market right now. Maybe even better than the British made rifles.

They have excellent and tight fitting circasion walnut furniture and usually excellent bores that measure out on the tight side, .310 or less, nothing yet over .311.

The POF No4 MKIIs have proven to be very accurate as well. They are made on ex British tooling and follow the specs to the letter.

"Junk" is hardly a decent description of these rifles. I will admit that they are usually covered in old, dried cosmolene and dirt when they are first encountered but they usually have all matching numbers and have been stored properly. That describes the POF rifles that have appeared in Canada anyway.

There must be something good about them. There were literally thousands of them imported into Canada and most sold anywhere from $275 - $350, without accessories, such as slings or bayonets. The accessories had to be purchased separately. I'm still looking for a Pakistani sling.

They first started to show up about two years ago and were plentiful. They are drying up fast as appreciation for their quality becomes known. In Canada anyway, I'll bet they will be as hard to find as the Indian 2A and 2A1 rifles are right now. At first, the .308 series 2 rifles were a hard sell as they were dirty and dinged. Now as shooters have been using them for a while, appreciation for them has grown so that they now command a premium price. No, it's not because of the cartridge it's chambered for either. I suspect the POF No4 MkI and MkII rifles will do the same by next year.

Purchase one while you still have the chance and wipe your nose.

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Thanks for the clarification gravityfan, I really appreciate it. This is a quality site and I don't want to see it reduced to that level. Unlike many, you are very well informed on the Indian/Pakistan dispute, I'm impressed and salute you.
bradtx, I've been known to knock back a few in my lifetime but I have and allergy to the chemicals used to age commercial beers so the handle is "bearhunter", which I do avidly. :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bradtx

beerhunter, We didn't seem to get the quantity of POF rifles y'all did. Sad for us.

Hopefully those with POF rifles will eventually post up about them so that we can all learn.

Brad

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Check your reading glasses. This is my first post on this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beerhunter

Check your reading glasses. This is my first post on this thread.

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We seem to have a "BEERHUNTER" & a "BEARHUNTER" - easy to confuse the two I guess !
Especially if the Bears are hunting Beer

beerhunter and bearhunter, Sorry to have confused the two of you!!!

Brad

bradtx, my comment was in jest, witness the (:-) ) "smiley face".

I thought it was a spelling error or maybe just wishful thinking. Thanks anyway.

Reminds me of when I had a heart attack many years ago. Phoned in sick naturally and the little girl clerk recorded it as having had a 'HEAT' attack. Unable to understand why anyone would have a HEAT attack in February, the next senior clerk changed it to HEAD attack............. Bless 'em. Shouldn't give them pens and paper...............

It got even worse, because when the equivalent of the Company Commander read it, he was heard to comment 'Capt. Laidler, ...........ing HEAD attack, what the matter with the bloke........, bloody head attack....I'll give him off sick with a head attack! We still laugh about it