Savage No.4 Mark 1 (T)

The earlier thread on Savage No.4 Mk1* sniper rifles had some interesting points. So as not to hijack that thread I thought I'd start a new one in which I'd like to show you a No.4 Mark 1 Savage that has been converted for sniper use.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254599922

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254599955

I bought this rifle about 4 years ago from an elderly gentleman that used to be a commercial airline pilot. He had bought it in 1967 from a place in New York and brought it down here to sunny Florida. It was shipped in its transit chest and still had this glued to it.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254599641

It also had his name and a receipt dated in early 1967. Knowing the gentleman and having the receipts makes me pretty confident that this is in the same condition it was in 1967 when he first acquired it.

The rifle does not conform to the markings of an accepted Holland and Holland conversion and I believe it to be one of the early Savage rifles converted at Enfield.In Peter Laidler's book on the .303 No.4 (T) Sniper Rifle, page 9 has a paragraph which reads "Enfield also converted the first of the Savage produced No.4 Mk 1 rifles and these are to be included in the Enfield converted total of 1,403." In addition, my rifle went through FTR in 1945 masking many of the tell tale signs of Enfield conversion - I submit it now to you for comment.

Receiver:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254600414

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254600446

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254600472

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254600541

The rifle does have the "Y" of US Property sticking out from the front pad but the pad itself was replaced in 1945 at the FTR.

Barrel date
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254600670

Butt Stock scope serial number markings:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254600773

The scored out number relates to a No.32 Mark 1. The new number relates to a No.32 Mark 3 fitted at FTR (my guess).

The wood forestock
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254600954

butt stock wrist
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254601016

Rear sight - savage mark 1
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1254601061

The rifle has a longbranch front sight protector and a Viners front barrel band - probably fitted at FTR.

Finally, no S51 (as it wasn't converted at H&H) and no telltale "T" by the ejector screw............hmmm, that had me worried until I found this

"The British issued instructions (Army Council Instruction 399 of 1944, dated 31 May 1944) which addressed the fact that some rifles had left the factories without the (T) designator. Units were ordered to apply this locally. It follows that not all were 'caught' at unit or depot level."

Nice setup there!

That's one gorgeous rifle!

-Mark

Sweet rig.

I will have to look under some wood but I don't have any of the tells, no T or TR and no scope had never been mounted.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Well done and nice photos too.

Mj1 I'm surprised to see the early cocking piece on your Savage T. Not that it's incorrect, it's just the first Savage No4 I've seen with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhunter

Mj1 I'm surprised to see the early cocking piece on your Savage T. Not that it's incorrect, it's just the first Savage No4 I've seen with it.

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Lets not jack the mans post with my junk, he has a sweet set up here. I will share some pictures with you by PM.:thup:

Thanks for sharing Amtikulu, I didn't really look very close when I removed the cosmoline so one day I will go back. Again nice rig and I saved one of your photos. PM me some time you lucky dog.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

.......:beerchug:............

I have 0C160. It's a Holland and Holland conversion but was never completed with the addition of a telescope. The Savage "T" conversions I've had, (both Mk.1 and Mk.1*), are all lacking the BSA selection "TR" on the left of the butt socket and finish "T" on the left side of the body. They've all had the S51 stamped on the underside of the buttstock providing the butt was still original and unchanged.

Remember too that H&H didn't put many of the well recognized markings on their conversions until 1943. You can find the examiner's marks and that's about it. I have a 1941 BSA/H&H that is "as issued" and has never been through FTR. It's devoid of the S51, TR and finish T stamps because it never had them to start with. The examiner's marks are all in the right places and it's right as rain.

Any chances of posting some pic's of your '41? The only one I have seen was a picture of Roger's '41 receiver in early rebuild.

Thanks Brian. I agree with the points you make. All rifles set up by H&H in the early days tend to be atypically marked, regardless of from which factory they originated. I know our late mutual friend Bruce Gorton was of the opinion that all Savage rifles were set up by H&H & I am inclined to agree with him (though am open to persuasion if someone can come up with the documentation which clearly states RSAF Enfield's involvement). Like you, I've had a few Savage rifles through my hands & all of the early ones which retained their original butts had the S51 mark (which also tends to indicate that this mark was applied from pretty much the outset to the H&H conversions, with the T's TR's etc following on). What would REALLY impress me is if anyone out there has a Savage T with an Enfield examiner's mark on the top flat of the front body pad.............

Sorry Amatikulu, didn't meant to witter on.......your rifle is a peach. The first T I ever acquired (more years ago than I care to remember) was a 1942 Savage Mk1* & I spent several years secretly wondering if I'd been 'had' because it wasn't built on a BSA Shirley! How we have learnt over the years & have much to be grateful for to people like Ian S & Peter.

ATB

Brian,
I forgot to ask on the last posting, but does 0C 160 have a 6 groove barrel?

Still coming over next Spring??

ATB

Roger,

I have two 1942 Savage No.4 Mark 1's and neither of them have any mark on the flat on the right side of the boltway. Look at the picture I posted originally of the right flat - it shows two stamps which have a crown over something followed by the letter "E" and another stamp I haven't seen before. I suspect they are "Enfield" markings but have no proof.

Brain will you still rebarrel my '45? It's missing the first 3".

What with the fair and garden I have dropped the ball again.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

I just took a look in the Knowledge Library at the Trials Sniper - converted at Enfield
http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/brit...1tsnipertrials

Picture 85 pretty much shows the same Enfield stamps on the boltway flat.

I think that's significant with respect to where my rifle was converted.

Roger,

I'd agree with Bruce that all of the Savage "T" rifles were set up by H&H. Pre-
1943 H&H conversions don't have the S51 on the buttstock as far as I've seen. I'd guess that even 1942 dated Savage rifles didn't get into their hands until 1943 at least.

Yes, 0C160 has it's original six groove barrel, Mk./1 cocking piece and other early features like the forend machined for a cut-off like a Trials rifle.

I sure hope so. We'll see how it goes. That was the best trip I've had in a long time and I travel quite a bit. You guys and everyone else in both France and England were great. Thanks again.

MJ,
Sure, just be sure and supply a barrel as I don't have any spares.

Amitikulu,
You found the examiner's marks! H&H rifles had them applied too so it doesn't necessarily mean yours was converted at Enfield. They were applied when the rifle was completed with the addition of a telescope and tested. Maybe Peter can elaborate?

Amatikulu,
I think we're talking at cross purposes; the examiner's marks I was referring to are the ones that are always found on the front body pad (mount base in modern parlance) of Enfield converted T's (Trials rifles). Harry Hardwick (his name if I remember correctly) the outlying Enfield examiner at H&H had the stamp D6E but the E, whilst indicating 'Enfield' doesn't mean that he (& the conversion) was actually located there.

But I guess we'll never know the answers to all of the questions, which is what makes collecting so fascinating.

ATB

Brian,
Thx for yours. I was over there again with my son, who just happened to go for a walk up to High Wood & also just happened to find half a dozen Mills bombs! Fortunately he has the good sense to know when to look but not touch. I'm hoping you can make it next year so we can have a little longer out there next time....

Got to go....off to 're-look' at Savage T markings.

ATB

Amitikulu, I saw your rifle's twin at the Knob Creek show last weekend. It was marked exactly the same as yours with the "TR" selection mark, had no finish "T" on the side of the body, no S51 stamped on the underside of the buttstock and the examiners marks all present. It no longer had a scope but has a scope number on the wrist so it was fitted with one at some point in it's career. It also had the "England" export mark stamped on the ring of the body and no post 1968 U.S. import marks. We know there's at least one more like yours out there. Brian

If a No4T came through our workshops without the T mark, then the IN examiner would simply mark his inspection sheet 'mark with T designator' and the Armourer with the job would simply stamp it according to the EMER which states '........in accordance with its telescope status' or something like that.

I have to say that we didn't mark the bracket with the rifle number as a matter of course because you had to remove the bracket to do it. If a bracket was being changed or re-fitted (forger getting off early on that day.....) then you'd number or re-number it

Brian, was it's serial number lower than 0C1000? Having seen it at Knob Creek, do you still think it's an early Holland and Holland coversion?

I pulled the butt stock of mine the other night and it doesn't have any serial number stamped on the end bit - does anyone with a known Enfield conversion know if they stamped the serial number here like H&H?

The serial number of the scope on my rifle corresponds with a very early Watson No.32 Mark 1 scope (1906)

The "TR" stamping on your butt socket appears different from the run of the mill BSA accuracy selection marks. It might be worthwhile to compare it to some Trials Rifle stamps to see if they are similar. I'll look at mine and get back in 24h or so.

I believe the TR was added after the conversions were transfered to H&H. I understand that the trials rifles did not have the normal "T" marks. I haven't looked my Trials T in a while but If I remember, the only stamps on it are the Enfield stamp on the front body pad and the correct surffed "T" on the underside of the barrel, Ray

You remember correctly, Rayg! My trials "T" is the most accurate No4 I own, but apparently all I look at are the sights. No TR mark on it.

Made me look at the rifle, though!:p

Amitikulu, The serial was below 0C1000, (I can't remember exactly what it was though). I think it's an early H&H conversion much like my 1941 BSA without all of the markings applied starting in 1943 but I could be wrong. never say never..... Brian