Winchester flip sight real or repro?

Hello,
I have a Winchester M1 carbine I am trying to bring into WWII configuration. I recently bought a Winchester flip sight from a private party on an online auction. After having been burned with some other recent Winchester carbine parts purchases which turned out to be fakes, I would really like to get comfortable with the authenticity of my newly purchased flip sight while I may still have an opportunity to return it. Can you please offer me your opinions? If you are not willing to post details here due to it giving counterfeiters guidance on how to improve their wares, I'd certainly appreciate offline communication, too.

Anyhow, I've put extensive close-up photos here:

http://207.98.189.235/flip_sight/

I can take more if need be.

Thanks in advance,
Josh

It's a reproduction.
Unless you paid for a repro.....Return it.

Charlie-painter777

Josh, It's a very bad fake. No USGI rear sight was made like that. The base should have told you it was a fake to start with. Return it to who ever sold it to you.

Thanks, guys. It will be going back. It is really very frustrating, though, trying to find a legit flip sight at ANY price. I appreciate that, yes, "the base should have told me it was a fake to start with". However, for justifiable reasons, no experts out there with real sights want to provide photos to a newbie collector like me so I can LEARN to tell the difference. What a world we live in where the deadbeats ruin it for the rest of us. I guess I'll just keep wasting precious time and money buying one repro after another until the experts tell me it is legit. I will not post photos to an active auction (if I find one), as experience has shown me that, if it is a real collectible, that will alert everyone else to it being available and I will quickly drive up the price to my own detriment.

Thanks,
Josh

Josh
Stay away from Riverbank or Modesto, CA sellers. He has a handfull of user names on Ebay and Gunbroker and maybe other sites and forums.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=142293323
Fake.

These days, an original Winchester flipper will cost you at least $150, IF you can find one, and they ARE hard to find. There are a lot of repros out there that are very good. Good luck in your quest.

The folks on the left coast and in MN. would have you believe their recently fabricated, unlimited supply of fake flip sights are the real deal. I can just about guarantee you that all who have posted here, including myself, have been burned at one time or another and remember what it's like to be a newbee. No doubt, it's worse nowdays. PM me with your email address and I will send some photos of a real Winchester flip sight.

dbarn,

I thought about contacting him off-line to help at first but a little 'bell' kind of went off -

He only wanted details of how to tell how to spot a fake sight, and then showed many detailed photos of one of the worst fake Type I sights I've ever seen.
(He's already received some answers of what is wrong with the sight he showed, and then acted like he already knew what people told him using the knowledge given to him here and on other web sites!)

He didn't say where he bought it from which seemed unusual if he already knew he had been taken, and then acted like he was throwing a pity party when nobody would offer details of what to look for to establish signs of fake type I sights.

Something about this post felt very contrived to me -

Also, he had never posted here before at all with this user name or talked about the "Winchester he's restoring", but had many questions that seemed like he knew (or didn't know) about details of flip sights.

I looked around and found two other carbine related sites he posted the same exact post and it seems he's trying to harvest details of what is wrong with the poor flip sight reproduction he has all the detailed photos of. (He's probably hit more sites)

http://207.98.189.235/flip_sight/big...-10_211919.JPG

Winchester flip sight real or repro? - Culvers Shooting Page Forums

CMP Discussion Forum - Winchester M1 carbine flip sight real or repro?

I don't have an account with the CMP forum, but someone who does should question this post there before someone gives him details of how to determine problems with the poor Type I sight he has all the detailed photos he posts.


'Josh', if you are innocent I apologize, but this looks a little wrong.

Thanks for the heads up Harlan. Sometimes I may be too eager to help someone out, but am remembering what it's like to be burned. Josh will need to furnish more info, from whom he is buying the flip sights and perhaps a picture of the carbine he is restoring. I do not believe that's too much to ask if he honestly needs help.

Don't feel bad at all for trying to help a 'self described' carbine 'newbie' dbarn.
(That's what we are here for!)

I appreciate your dedication for trying to help a new enthusiast to our expensive hobby. I almost blindly jumped in to help him off-line too after his post, but his post seemed strange after thinking about it and I checked around on other sites when I saw he'd never been here before. :eek:

I could be completely wrong, but this doesn't seem right.

~ Harlan

I think I remember him from the CMP forum. I think he is a genuine newbie, I don't think he is one of the bad guys in disguise.

Copy and paste of my response to his thread on another forum:

The best way to get a genuine flip sight is to buy one attached to an original World War II configuration carbine. ;)

Even if you are able to find genuine USGI early parts, the final result of the restoration won't be the same or worth the same as a legit original carbine.

What's the point of spending a lot of money on parts claimed to real but are probably fake? Statistically, because of the rarity of the genuine parts and the ever-increasing number of fakes being churned out, the odds are any flip sight, Type 1 band, pushbutton safety, etc. you see for sale is fake.

A carbine restored with reproduction parts is not original. Neither is one restored with genuine USGI parts. Both are restorations, not original. Originality, like virginity, can't be restored.

Therefore, if you just have to have a World War II configuration carbine, but don't want to pay what that costs, use reproduction parts honestly sold as reproductions at reproduction part prices. That way you will get what you want (a carbine that looks like it did during World War II) without being ripped off. :)

You may be right Milsurp Collector, and if he's a legitimate newbie I apologize, but his posts didn't feel right. Badger traced his IP address and he's been dealing parts and guns on several forums and seldom participates in normal gun related subjects. Mostly only WTS forums.

I'd like to see his project and know more about him before supplying details of an expensive part that's so frequently faked.

Gunboard's Forums - Search Results

The 6.5 Grendel Forum :: For the 6.5 Grendel Aficionado - Search Results

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...L.html?page=-1

WTS: *SOLD* M1 Carbine, Saginaw SG (CMP) $625 shipped - Gunboard's Forums

Every new carbine collector should roam the pages of the following web site.
Learn not to buy anything marked or finished like these examples.
Look at the 3rd stock from the top.
I know most of these are humped.........
But,
Look how bad this WRA I cut is.
If you pay $599.00 for this......I suggest another hobby.

Charlie-painter777

http://home.att.net/~ra-carbines/parts3.html

Gosh!

How come the cartouches on the carbines I have had have never been as perfect as that Winnie? I feel Gypped:rofl: The parts fairy must have visited the left coast.

The oiler slot has some 'Issues'

Charlie

"I" cut, that I would have no idea about. That's why I am content not to try a "restoration" with original parts. My Underwood in a pot belly looks better all the time! Even as an absolute "know-nothing" non-collector, I am amazed at the gazillion "original" parts and stocks surfacing in mint condition.

Fake parts has really made me stop. I like to collect and I have stopped. I am doing lots of research and learning from you guys. I was gonna replace a something on mine but I think it is gonna stay the way it is. I know the parts are all original. So no parts for me for a long time. That includes frankensteen stocks by that painter fellow. :rofl:

cmbtinfantry,
That hurt........I'm going to bring that one alive......if possible.
I'll show you !!
I'll show you all !!

Cheers
Charlie-painter777

No offense was meant, course I was a little hurt when you seemed to want to interest me in it. :rofl: :super:

Cheers,
Rick

Charlie tried to sell 'Frankenstock' to me too Rick, describing it as having some minor arsenal repairs that gave it 'Character'

(I think he's been been spending way too much time reading George's ads!) :lol:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10/Frank-1.jpg

Charlie has been breathing too much paint fumes. I learned all about painters when we recently remodeled our home. The painters complained because I didn’t use oil-based paint. Seems they like the smell, gives them a high. By the way, Charlie recommended I use something else so my painters are mad at him and not me. :bash:

Hi cafdfw, et al.,
You've asked for proof of my legitimacy. I'll try to provide it.

My entry into the M1 carbine world was about a year and a half ago, when I purchased my first M1 carbine. Believe it or not, it was a MINT condition (unissued) Standard Products, all original except for the flip sight which, somehow, somewhere, had been replaced with an adjustable sight. [The receiver had the slash stake marks for the flip sight as well as the punch stake marks for the adjustable sight.] I bought it from a much more serious gun collecting friend (not a very close one, though) for $1000 (again, believe it or not). My Standard Catalog of Military Firearms said it should be worth about $1900. It looked like museum quality to me, though, and, at my wife's prodding, it seemed like something too nice to shoot. It seemed a shame to shoot it, when a collector more serious than me would surely like it kept in that condition. I really only wanted a shooter, but with WWII historical significance. I am an amateur collector on a limited budget and do not own any guns I do not regularly shoot (hence why some have been on the chopping block lately).

So, I posted on at least a couple forums (CMP and the old Jouster.com forums) to ask people: was this gun really worth $1900 (that seemed high to me, considering my in-the-know friend sold it to me for $1000) and would it be criminal to shoot it. I quickly received multiple offers to purchase it or trade it for "shooter" carbines. My best offer was for two CMP white bag carbines (somewhat of my choosing) and $1500 cash. I settled on that. One of the carbines was the Winchester high-wood carbine I have now. The other carbine I parted with. For proof of at least some portions of this story, please see this CMP forum thread:

http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic...TOPIC_ID=47158

The Winchester carbine I got was very nice, with appropriate Winchester high wood, a virtually new Winchester barrel, and many Winchester parts. Being a WWII enthusiast, it was my desire to get it back into correct WWII configuration, but that would be a long term priority, not something I had the time or money to do soon.

As I said above, I have a limited gun collecting budget. A few months ago, as the ammo crisis (at least from my perspective) was in full swing, I decided that I had too many guns to feed and it was causing too much stress and wasting too much time (especially family time). So, I decided to sell off some guns. That resulted in some extra cash, and I recently decided to start trying to replace the incorrect parts on my Winchester carbine. You can see evidence of those purchases here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=139395841
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=139554128
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=139446654
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141446620
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141735012
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=350252721334
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=110442216255

As you can see, I bought two Winchester flip sights, one of which I eventually sold. More on that later.

During my early "auction research" for parts, I saw plenty of people advertising repro flip sights. Being extremely gullible, evidently, I somehow took that as meaning that if a part wasn't listed as "repro", it was legit. Silly, I know, but the thought truly didn't enter my mind. Somewhere late in the process of buying these parts, I found what looked like a Type II Winchester mag catch listed on gunbroker by Riverbank Armory (under one of his names). I emailed him offline to ask if I could buy one offline (I don't recall why). He said yes. When I received it, it didn't seem quite kosher, so I started doing some googling on Riverbank Armory and came across some scary threads. By that point, I had bought my second flip sight (the one that started this thread). As previously stated, I had bought one at first, but it was in BAD shape. I bought the second thinking I'd sell the first (I did) and have less work to do with the second. The second one was paid for and on its way to me before I got educated that plenty of fake parts are advertised as being authentic. Hence my posting of this thread once I got the sight.

As additional evidence of my legitimacy, here is where I am selling the parts that came on my Winchester carbine but which I have replaced with what I believe to be legit parts:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=143007296
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=143007477
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=143007636
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=143008091

Finally, here are a few photos of my Winchester carbine:

http://207.98.189.235/win_carbine/

It is not fully assembled, as I haven't had time yet to actually install the parts I've bought. As you can see, the adjustable sight was NOT staked, which seems to scream out to me that it needs a flip sight instead. :-) I'm down to needing a flip sight, push safety, Type II barrel band, and buttplate, but I think I have a buttplate in the works.

Now that I have hopefully proven that I am a newbie collector and not a "humper", I would GREATLY appreciate offline guidance from you experts about how to tell if a flip sight is legit.

On a related note, the seller (s2million) of the flip sight I most recently bought (and with which I started this thread), insists quite vehemently that his sight was pulled from an authentic Winchester carbine and is the real deal. He says I cannot return it.

Thanks,
Josh

Josh,
I couldn't help but notice you were at least the 2nd buyer of that flip sight from s2million.
Here is the first buyer,
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=137435304
You'll notice feedback was left by the first buyer.........but the sight was re-listed, then you bought it,
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141446620

Note that in the first listing....s2million shows the bottom of the sight in his pictures. In the re-listed auction, that you bought from......NO sign of any pictures of the bottom.
I guess it's possible that the seller really thought he had a legit USGI part.
But the 2nd listing IMHO had the pictures manipulated.

Just a thought here....but maybe that first buyer agreed to leave positive feedback to get his money back.

Also noticed that this same seller has bought from No Guts...No Glory
That's a red flag. Those 2 auctions are to old to look up.

And just to wrap this up.....look at the .U. sling he sold,
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=137435889

I'd love to hear from Mr. Ricca per this sling.

Hang in there...
We can be a nervous bunch....
Charlie-painter777

I'm a newby too. So far I havent been burned on my rebuild but I'm doing a very easy rebuild. My advice is ask the experts here berfore you buy. There are some good people on here that will help and know their stuff. Read all the post. I have and learned alot. When I first posted I never taken a carbine apart. Now I have one in alot of pieces..LOL Hopefully I get the dang thing back together..LOL
Michael

Josh,

Thanks for the clarifying info. My offer still stands. Please PM your email address and I will forward pics of an original Winchester flip sight as installed by Winchester on 556307x. This carbine's receiver has the same olive green color as yours and the flip sight is staked with tiny chisel marks. Will forward pics when I'm off work this PM.

David

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cafdfw

Charlie tried to sell 'Frankenstock' to me too Rick, describing it as having some minor arsenal repairs that gave it 'Character'

(I think he's been been spending way too much time reading George's ads!) :lol:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10/Frank-1.jpg

---

To be fair and to give him a chance at revenge I'll put some pics of a really interesting carbine I've got up someday. :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painter777

Josh,
I couldn't help but notice you were at least the 2nd buyer of that flip sight from s2million.
....
Charlie-painter777

---

Hi Charlie,
Thanks for that info. Yes, I had discovered that, too, while burning some time yesterday. More than that, the aperture (or whatever the flipping element is correctly called) has been reversed since the first buyer bought it and I bought it. Or at least it looks that way to me. That would seem to be another red flag. And, yes, I did notice he's bought from No Guts No Glory, whose parts seem questionable.

Any thoughts about what the reversed aperture tells us? Does it seem that way to you, too, i.e., that it was reversed between the two sales? The pin has definitely been removed and reinstalled at some point, as the circular "stakes" on the ends of the pins no longer line up with the circular marks on the sight base.

I don't follow the concern about the .U. sling. Is that one clearly a repro?

Thanks again,
Josh

Hi Josh,

Sorry about the scrutiny. As you have found yourself the hard way there are many parts humpers (crooks) out there and we really don't want to give up details to make it even easier to fleece people. You found the 'king' of the humpers. (Don't feel bad - He cheated me on the very first carbine part I bought years ago and he will NOT return your money!)
You'll have to admit your posts were suspicious looking. He (your seller, George) has sneaked in to all the sites using different names. He sells under many different names too. PM Charlie for a list. That's one of the best ways not to get burned. Don't buy from known humpers.

Yes, the sling is fake. Carbine slings are a notoriously 'humped' part.
With the influx of so many new carbines and owners, the humpers are going after them like sharks.
(Feel free to PM or email me for info of things wrong with the sling, if you're still talking to me):)

Best regards,
~ Harlan

Josh,
I was running late for work last night and just did a fast back ground search of that sellers dealings.

You're right....that flipper was on backwards for the first auction and switched around to the correct position on the 2nd (Your) auction.

Note that some Original Carbines have been documented with the flip sight installed backward.

With the muzzle pointing away, a flip sight is installed from the right to the left. The S marking tells you it goes in first, because that side of the base is narrower than the right side. The receivers dovetails narrow down on the left side.

Very nice looking carbine you have there. Thanks for sharing it with us. Very possible your rear sight was swapped out in the field......or by a private owner. My father hated both the flip sight and adj types. He was used to the more open sights found on rifles back home, in the day. He commented about many GI's he served with that trimmed the outer ears off the frt sights for better vision in lo-light conditions. He carried his .45 and liked it better than trying to hang on to a carbine while running heavy equipment.
here's a picture of him proudly showing off a made by Colt for the Argentines .45. He won this from a Australian playing cards. Heard that story a million times.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../10/0011-1.jpg

The Sling,
Look closely at how freshly stamped the .U. marking is.
I've never seen a .U. marked sling. There may be real ones out there.......but I wouldn't believe it unless I heard it from one of the Advance members of the Carbine Club.

Hooks/BB,
About the fumes.....
I'll admit I've been known to poke a hole in my mask every now and then but give advise on coatings with a clear head.
Bottom line...How did your finish come out?
Better yet, it will stay looking nice for a longer time now than if your painters had used oil. Oil was the king years ago...but slowly with the VOC and solids being pulled to keep the EPA happy, it's become less than desirable for interior use in the long run. With the newer Waterborne Acrylic lines you have the Microban technology that helps fight mold and mildew in the dried film. Biggest advantage is these lines will touch up, and not yellow with time.

Harlan and cmbtinfantry,
'Frankenstock'
Will come a live and will have a memory !!

Cheers
Charlie-painter777

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cafdfw

... if you're still talking to me):)

Best regards,
~ Harlan

---

Hi Harlan,
Yes, I'm still talking to you. I don't have enough experience with the humpers to have the basis for suspicion that you do. So, no, I cannot really get a good feel for whether my posts should have raised suspicion. That said, I don't fault you and harbor no ill feelings.

Josh

Hi all,
Another question: my current barrel band is a virtually new Inland Type II band marked "KI". Would that be comparable in value to a Winchester Type II band in perhaps lesser condition? Maybe I can find a trustable source (such as one of you) who would trade?

Thanks,
Josh